ahmadiyyafactcheckblog

[00:03:00] So two things are important here. Firstly, the discussion is about Ahmadiyyat. What is Ahmadiyyat?. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani Sahib, who is the founder of their community, his writings and all the literature of his community which they own and accept. That is Ahmadiyyat. So the discussion is within Ahmadiyyat. That is the first point. Secondly, the discussion is about the coming of a Zilli Nabi. Everyone must note this. The existence of a Zilli Nabi. Okay, you all must keep these points in mind throughout the debate. Now I come to the first part of my premise. As far as it concerns, since I have presented a claim here, I have stated a premise, which is that the coming of a Zilli Nabi within Ahmadiyyat ended with the coming of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani. So, in what sense am I referring to Zilli Nabi here?. I am referring to the sense in which it exists within Ahmadiyyat. What is that sense?. In Ahmadiyyat, Prophets are divided into three categories. The first is called Haqiqi Nabi (True Prophet)—such prophets used to bring a Sharia (Law). The second is called Mustaqil Nabi (Independent Prophet)—such prophets did not bring a Sharia. All the prophets from Adam (A.S.) up to the Messenger of Allah (S.A.W.) fall within these two categories; either they are Haqiqi or they are Mustaqil. The continuity of both these types of prophets has been completely terminated forever in Ahmadiyyat due to the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) being the Khatam un-Nabiyyin (Seal of the Prophets). And what is the meaning of “forever”? That both these types of prophets cannot come until the Day of Judgment (Qiyamah). Now I will give you an example of both types of prophets. For example, Musa (A.S.) is an example of Haqiqi prophets, and no prophet like him can come. Zakariyya and Yahya (A.S.) are examples of prophets who did not bring a Sharia. No prophet like them can come either.

[00:05:00] Now we come to the third type, which is the subject of our discussion today. That is Zilli Nubuwwat (Subordinate Prophethood). What is that?. What does it mean in Ahmadiyyat for someone to be called a Zilli Nabi?. Here, the word Zill (Reflection) is used by these people in relation to the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.). That is one point. Secondly, what does it mean for someone to be called a Zilli Nabi?. Being called a Zilli Nabi means the Messenger of Allah (S.A.W.) was sent again as a Zill (Reflection) and Buruz (Manifestation). This is what Zilli Nabi means inside Ahmadiyyat. That is, what is the meaning of the statement? In Ahmadiyyat, Zilli Nabi means that the Messenger of Allah (S.A.W.) himself was sent in a Zilli/Buruzi form. If, besides this, any person is called a Prophet and he is not the Kamil Zill (Perfect Reflection) and Kamil Buruz (Perfect Manifestation) of the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.), then he breaks the seal of Khatam-e-Nubuwwat. This is the fundamental premise of Izala-e-Auham. Mirza Sahib himself was sent as the Zilli/Buruzi form of the Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.) one more time. So, when I say that no Zilli/Buruzi Nabi is to come after Mirza Sahib in Ahmadiyyat, what am I saying? I am saying that according to Ahmadiyyat, the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) cannot be sent again in a Zilli/Buruzi form (meaning, a third time) after Mirza Sahib. My claim, in terms of clarification, is complete.

(Speaker: Saifi) [00:05:45] Yes, Khalid Bhai. Please show the time and if anyone is chatting, please remove it from the screen, because the full time is not showing on your screen. Move it down. Yes, now it is correct. So, the distinguished speaker has defined Zill and Buruz as the one who brings the existence of Muhammad (S.A.W.). They say this is what a Zilli/Buruzi Prophet is. However, this is not the definition of Zill and Buruz. Nor did Hazrat Masih Mau’ud (A.S.) define Zill and Buruz in this way. The definition of Zill and Buruz is very simple. And that is that when you attain a position or status through someone’s reflection (us ki ism mein), that position and status is called Zill. For example, if a person attains a status within the Ummah of Muhammad (S.A.W.), that is Zill—it is not the original (asl). Hazrat Masih Mau’ud (A.S.) himself clearly presented this matter. This is in Izala-e-Auham itself and in other places too. Hazrat Masih Mau’ud (A.S.) stated that he is not a prophet separate from Muhammad (S.A.W.), but rather he is the Zill (Reflection) of Muhammad (S.A.W.).

[00:07:00] Then he explained that he attained this status by following the Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.) and remaining in his obedience (iqtida). So, “I am not separate from you,” which is why he clearly stated repeatedly that a Zill is never separate from the Asl (Original). So the definition of Zill and Buruz has been given by scholars and stated by Mirza Sahib: if a status is attained through someone’s obedience (iqtida) and following (pairavi), that is Zill, not the Asl. The Asl is the Being through whom you received that thing. Okay. As for the definition they are giving, they should show me that from the books of Hazrat Masih Mau’ud (A.S.). Yes, where Hazrat Masih Mau’ud (A.S.) said that “I am the Zill of Muhammad (S.A.W.)” and there was a prophecy for the coming of the Zill of Muhammad (S.A.W.)—that point is valid. But your claim is that no Zilli/Buruzi Nabi can come after Mirza Sahib. You must prove this. So far, Imtiaz Sahib has not presented any written reference related to this. I request him to present that written reference to me. Okay. Where he derived this definition of Hazrat Masih Mau’ud (A.S.). Secondly, if he has any text related to his claim, he should present it. Anyway, I will stick to this; there is no need for a long discussion. So, I give Imtiaz Bhai his time. He should take his three minutes and then continue the discussion. Yes, Imtiaz Bhai.

(Speaker: Imtiaz) [00:08:45] Your mic is muted, I cannot hear your voice. Sorry, since I had muted it, I have unmuted it. Okay, Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Rahim. Okay, Saifi, first, you must note that whatever point you make, you have to show me the evidence when I demand it. Okay, one thing you must remember is that you are repeatedly mentioning in your speech that someone who attains a status or position will be the Zilli Nabi. In your next turn, do not leave any ambiguity in your discussion. Zilli Nabi is not just about a status or position. Keep this in mind in your next turn. Okay, the second point you made is that there is a prophecy about the coming of the Zill of the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.). You must show me that prophecy about the coming of the Zill of the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) in your turn. These are just my two demands from you. Now I come to the demand you made of me. Insha’Allah, I will tell you that first. Okay. I am now going to read a reference to you, Insha’Allah, and I will read it from the original book. You must note this. Tell those who are available to help you to display it, or you can find it yourself from Ruhani Khazain, Volume 18, page numbers 214 and 215. I am going to read from page number 214. “In short, the word Khatam un-Nabiyyin is a Divine Seal that has been placed upon the prophethood of the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.).”. Everyone should note this. What is Mirza Sahib saying?. That the word Khatam un-Nabiyyin is a Divine Seal placed upon the prophethood of the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.). “Now it is impossible for it ever to be broken.”. Then what will happen?. “However, it is possible that the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) may come in a Buruzi (Manifestational) form, not just once, but a thousand times.”.

[00:10:45] What is he doing?. He is speaking of possibility (Imkan). And possibility of only one thing. What is that?. That the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.), look who comes?. The Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) may come not just once, but a thousand times in a Buruzi form. Whose possibility did he state?. The possibility of his (the Prophet’s) Buruz coming. What does he say next?. “And demonstrate his prophethood with his perfections in a Buruzi form.”. Now, in any discussion or understanding of any matter, the importance lies in how the people of that school of thought themselves explain it to you. Mirza Sahib’s son, Bashir Ahmad M.A., in his book, which the Ahmadiyya Community wrote on their website will explain the Jama’at’s stance. Listen: “Whoever is a Zilli Nabi, whoever is a Zilli Nabi, upon attaining all the perfections of the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.), will be called ‘Muhammad Rasulullah’ (Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah).”. So, the Zilli Nabi is Muhammad Rasulullah. The Zilli/Buruzi Nabi is Muhammad Rasulullah. Note the reference I read from Mirza Sahib’s son. Kalimatul Fasl, Review of Religions, March-April 1915, page number 116. Okay, my point is complete.

[00:13:20] I disagreed with the definition of Zill that you were giving me, that this is the definition of Zill. The statement you made about the definition of Zill was wrong. The statement you are making now—that whoever attains the status of prophethood through obedience (iqtida) and following (pairavi) of Muhammad (S.A.W.) will gain his name—is correct. Because the definition of Buruz is exactly this: when a person attains a status (I normally mentioned the status of prophethood, in line with the definition) through the obedience and following of someone else. They say that person attains the name of the one they follow. Okay. That is the definition of Buruz. So they also said the same thing, and we also say the same thing. But the definition of Buruz you were giving was wrong. That’s why I said that is not the definition of Zill according to Hazrat Masih Mau’ud (A.S.). Yes, my point is done. Oh, you were asking one thing?. Yes, there was one thing about my time. But speak using “Mirza Sahib,” you are taking his name directly, that is not good.

(Speaker: Imtiaz) [00:14:40] Bismillah, Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Rahim. Okay, first of all, I told you in the last turn to put that matter aside. I told you that you made a point in your first turn. You said there is a prophecy in the Holy Quran about the coming of a Zill of the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.). You must present that Quranic verse in your turn, because a statement shouldn’t just be passed over like that. Okay, next you said that I defined Buruz. I did not define Buruz at all. You should listen to the discussion a bit. I told you the definition of a Zilli Nabi. I did not tell you the definition of Buruz. If you want to hear the definition of Buruz now, listen to that too. A Buruz is when the soul of a person who has passed away returns and resides in a living person. In Ahmadiyyat, that is called Buruz. The reference for this is my responsibility. Note it now: Ruhani Khazain, Volume 17, page numbers 318 and 319, Tuhfa Golarhviyya. Okay, let’s continue. I did not use a single word…. Okay, stop my time now. I will tell you about Tuhfa Golarhviyya. Now you must realize. I will tell you one thing, you should do this: when I am talking, write it down. Ask me for the reference after my talk is finished. Don’t interrupt the conversation, please. Listen now. I am telling you the references. Tuhfa Golarhviyya, Ruhani Khazain, Volume 17, page number 318, 319, footnote. Okay.

[00:16:40] Now I return to my point. I clarified this so that if you mention Buruz, Buruz is that. Here, the discussion is about the Zilli/Buruzi Nabi. Okay. What definition did I present?. Everyone, listen. I said that the meaning of calling someone a Zilli/Buruzi Nabi in Ahmadiyyat is that the Messenger of Allah (S.A.W.) himself arrived as a Zill and Buruz. This is the definition I provided. Saifi said this definition is wrong. No problem. In your turn, you must present the Ahmadiyya definition of what it means for someone to be called a Zilli/Buruzi Nabi. I defined it as: In Ahmadiyyat, Zilli/Buruzi Nabi means the Messenger of Allah (S.A.W.) himself arrives as a Zill and Buruz. You said this definition is wrong. You must present the definition in your turn. And the pending matter from before. You must come and show the prophecy you mentioned—that there is a prophecy in the Quran about the coming of a Zill of the Prophet (S.A.W.).

[00:17:30] Now let’s move forward. I did not use the word muqtadi (follower) in my turn. I did not use iqtida (obedience). I didn’t use it at all. You said a very strange thing. You said that whoever follows (ittiba’) the Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.), whoever obeys him, whoever is his muqtadi, will gain his name. SubhanAllah. I will tell you two names: Hazrat Abu Bakr Siddiq, Hazrat Umar Farooq (May Allah be pleased with all the Companions). I gave you two names. Both followed. Which of them gained the name?. What kind of definition have you given that whoever follows someone gains their name?. Which of the Companions gained that name?. You have to answer this, because you yourself said this. Okay. After that, everyone must note one thing. I never used the term Maqam-e-Nubuwwat (status of prophethood) in my turn. I am extremely careful in the use of my terminology. And I will use the terminology that exists in Ahmadiyyat. I said being called a Zilli/Buruzi Nabi and Rasul. The whole discussion is revolving around being called a Zilli/Buruzi Nabi/Rasul. Okay. After that, I will make a final point. You spoke about Imkan (possibility). Imkan means that this work can happen, or it cannot happen. A thing in which both probabilities are found cannot become a definitive proof (daleel). My point is complete.

(Speaker: Saifi) [00:19:15] Okay, Bismillah. Start the time. First of all, I will talk about the definition. Regarding your statement about Zill and Buruz—that you were claiming that Ahmadiyyat calls that a Zill—I am saying the definition is wrong. The fact that they speak of Zill in relation to Muhammad (S.A.W.) is correct in context, because they are talking about the obedience of a specific Prophet, his following (Iqtida). But the definition of Zill does not include the name of any person. It states a condition: if you do this, you will be entitled to this name, or you will be called this. I am talking about the definition. And you are saying that “this is the definition in Ahmadiyyat”. Where did Ahmadiyyat say, “According to us, this is the definition of Zill—that whoever follows Muhammad (S.A.W.)?”. No, they are not saying that. There is a difference between the two things, understand the difference. The definition of Zill is one thing, and the writings and statements you are presenting are another. MGA is called this because Mirza Sahib obeyed the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) and attained the status of prophethood in that obedience, which is why he attained his name. Okay.

[00:20:00] Secondly, you said that there is news in the Holy Quran about the coming of the Buruz of Muhammad (S.A.W.). Yes, this is our belief. News exists regarding the coming of a Buruz under that verse, who will come after Muhammad (S.A.W.). But this is not the subject of our discussion. Do not try to run away from the debate. If you want to discuss this, you can do so in another session, at another time. Thirdly, you gave me the reference of Tuhfa Golarhviyya, in which you defined Buruz. That Buruz is when the soul of a Prophet enters another body. I read it briefly. Since time is short, it would be more appropriate if you read that phrase in your own turn. You mentioned the footnote on page 318 and 319. The footnote on 318 is quite long. You can read it in your own time. We will read it together. If you need extra time, we can give it. Then you said: “Why didn’t Abu Bakr Siddiq and Umar gain the name if they followed Muhammad (S.A.W.)?”. It is not necessary that everyone who follows should gain the name. The example is like this: Allah promised those who believe and do good deeds that He will surely make them Caliphs on earth. Now, besides Abu Bakr Siddiq, Hazrat Abu Huraira, Hazrat Ibn Umar, Hazrat Ibn Abbas—they also believed and did good deeds. Why didn’t they become Caliphs?. The point is, the status of prophethood is bestowed by Allah, He gives the name to whom He wills. Okay. My time is up.

(Speaker: Imtiaz) [00:21:05] Okay, Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Rahim. First of all, moving forward, keep one thing in mind: if you make unnecessary statements like that, I won’t let you escape from it again. You yourself said in your first turn. What did you say?. You said there is a prophecy about a Zilli Nabi coming in the Quran. What verse are you reading? Where is the statement you presented written in it?. Confusion comes to people because they fail to distinguish between two things. One is what is written in the verse, and the other is the interpretation you are applying to the verse. Okay. You said that I presented something irrelevant to the topic. You are talking about irrelevant matters. When I demand a reference for an irrelevant matter, you say, “This is not our topic, we will discuss it later”. So, when you speak, think about what you are saying, so that you can stand by it later.

[00:22:20] Okay, let’s move on. You gave a principle. Listen to your discussion again. You said: whoever follows and obeys will gain the name of the one followed. You stated a principle. When I caught you on your principle, saying, “Look, they followed but did not gain the name,” you said, “It is not necessary that they gain it”. So why did you say it then?. State a principle that is also applicable. Okay. After that, you went to Ayat Istikhlaf. Speak about the subject. Okay. After that, I am repeatedly drawing everyone’s attention to one thing. I did not define Zill. I did not define Buruz the first time. I defined what it means for someone to be called a Zilli/Buruzi Nabi in Ahmadiyyat. What did I say?. I told you by reading a quote. I am repeating it just once for the listeners so they hear it. Mirza Sahib’s son said that “whoever is a Zilli Nabi will be called Muhammad Rasulullah on account of having attained all the perfections of the Holy Prophet”. Here the word is kamma (all). “Whoever is a Zilli Nabi will be called Muhammad Rasulullah on account of having attained all the perfections of the Holy Prophet”. So I presented the definition from your own house. This exact statement is written by Mirza Sahib in Izala-e-Auham. His son is saying the same thing here on page 116 of Kalimatul Fasl. I demanded that you define Zilli Nabi. You must begin your turn by defining Zilli Nabi. I have already presented the definition. You said it is wrong. In your turn, you must explain what a Zilli/Buruzi Nabi is called in Ahmadiyyat, not the status of prophethood. Okay. And the last thing I mentioned: I am not defining Zill. I did not define Buruz. Yes, you demanded the definition of Buruz, and I provided it. And I stand by my definition. What is the meaning of Buruz in Ahmadiyyat?. A person who passed away from the world, his soul comes and resides in a living person. This living person becomes the Buruz of that deceased person. My point is complete.

(Speaker: Saifi) [00:24:25] I said you should read that text. Anyway, read it in the next turn, because you have raised quite a few points. Okay. First of all, this is the thing: you are asking for a definition. You are asking what a Zilli Nabi is called. Okay. You have not mentioned the name of any Prophet here. I do not deny the statement the community wrote, nor the statement you are making. You are asking without mentioning the name. Do you understand?. What is the definition of Zilli Nabi? What will a Zilli Nabi be called?. So obviously, the name of the Prophet is not mentioned here. It will be said that the status of prophethood attained through the obedience or following of someone else—that is what a Zilli Nabi will be called. That is, a person became a prophet through the following and obedience of some prophet. We will call him Zilli Nabi. Now look, the name of Muhammad (S.A.W.) is not mentioned here. This is the definition. This is called the definition. Now, whatever prophet he may be—Musa, Isa, Harun, Yahya, whatever the name. This is called the definition.

[00:25:30] The statement the Ahmadiyya Community makes is specific. They are speaking specifically about Muhammad (S.A.W.). They are mentioning the name of the Prophet whose obedience he performs. This is not what they are saying: “According to us, this is the definition of Zilli Nabi”. They are only stating that the Zilli Nabi who comes after Muhammad (S.A.W.) will gain the name of Muhammad (S.A.W.) because he is coming in obedience to Muhammad (S.A.W.). They are mentioning the name of the Prophet whose books this appears in. That is the difference. There is no conflict between your statement and mine. Okay. Secondly, you asked what my position is: aa sakta hai (can come) or aayega (will come). We tell people this: the sequence of prophethood is ongoing; a prophet can come. Mirza Sahib also said the same thing. But from aa sakta hai, you cannot conclude that we negate the arrival of a prophet. I have presented the example to you. Aayega means the matter is confirmed. It is necessary, required. And aa sakta hai means possibility (Imkan). Why? Because we are not Alim al-Ghaib (Knower of the Unseen). If God gives knowledge, that thing can be stated as confirmed. If God does not give knowledge, that thing cannot be stated as confirmed. For example, you say, “No prophet can come after Muhammad (S.A.W.)”. Okay. You will never turn back and say, “He can come”. You don’t even express the possibility. Why? Because, according to you, that thing is finished. Since prophethood is finished after the Messenger of Allah (S.A.W.) according to you, you don’t even express the possibility. Likewise, if your claim—that the Ahmadiyya Community denies the coming of a Zilli/Buruzi Nabi after Mirza Sahib and it is closed—were true, then Imkan (possibility) could also not be expressed. But if Imkan is being expressed, that is proof that the door is open. Now you must answer my question. If there is any point from the previous discussion that you want to address again, then do so. Otherwise, come to the core point. You yourself presented my argument: Mirza Sahib said aa sakta hai. Now show me a written text from Mirza Sahib that is contrary to this, where Mirza Sahib forbade it—that he cannot come. Show me that text from Mirza Sahib. Come on.

(Speaker: Imtiaz) [00:30:10] Khalid Bhai, I didn’t understand your point. How much time did Saifi take?. Wait, wait, wait. How much time?. I took 17 seconds extra. 17 seconds extra. The time probably wasn’t reset at six minutes and something seconds. His camera is blurry. It looks blurry to me too. Yes, Khalid Bhai, are you present?. Yes, I am present. The camera setting… I am right here. Yes, it is working. No, brother, nothing…. Start the time. It just keeps running, and you don’t realize. His three minutes are finished, and my three minutes are finished. Yes, I apologize. It went ahead by 17 seconds. Okay. So, it is fine.

[00:31:00] Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Rahim. Okay, first of all, Saifi stated the definition of Zilli Nabi. I wrote it down while he was speaking. He says: Zilli Nabi is the status of prophethood attained through the following and obedience of someone else. You have to show this definition. That status of prophethood. Okay, one point. Secondly, everyone listened to what I said in the last turn. I said that the topic of discussion here is not Maqam-e-Nubuwwat. Many things can be discussed in Islam, right?. The topic being discussed is the existence of a Zilli/Buruzi Nabi. That is the topic. So, first, you must provide the reference for that “status of prophethood attained through the following and obedience of someone else”. Secondly, in the next turn, avoid quoting references about Maqam-e-Nubuwwat; quote references about Zilli Nabi. The entire topic is about Zilli Nabi. Okay. And you know that in Ahmadiyyat, Maqam-e-Nubuwwat is one thing, and the existence of a Zilli/Buruzi Nabi is another. The reference will be given upon demand. Okay. Next, look. You say that the definition…. You should at least study your own literature, Saifi.

[00:32:00] I said one thing in the beginning, didn’t I?. The entire discussion is about Ahmadiyyat. The concept of a Zilli Nabi coming before the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) does not exist in Ahmadiyyat. Mirza Sahib said the inception of Zilli Nabi starts with the Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.), that no prophet before him was a follower of a previous prophet. So, when the inception of Zilli Nabi in your Ahmadiyyat starts with the Prophet (S.A.W.), the definition will be given in relation to him. How can you give a generic definition?. Okay. After that, now. Since we need to wrap up the previous discussion and move forward. Please note the important pending matters from the previous discussion so we can address them and move forward. The most important pending matter is the definition of Zilli Nabi. What is the definition of a Zilli Nabi according to Ahmadiyyat?. I presented the definition: he will be Muhammad Rasulullah on account of having attained all perfections. I presented it. Now you must present the definition. What is the definition of the Zilli Nabi who will be called one in Ahmadiyyat?. Okay. There is a problem here. Give me one second. No, no, no. The puzzle came up in front of me. Okay. The puzzle that needs to be solved. Okay, I will repeat my point. I told you that I presented the definition. Who is the Zilli Nabi in Ahmadiyyat?. He is Muhammad Rasulullah on account of having attained all perfections. You said this definition is wrong. You must state the correct definition. Not of Maqam-e-Nubuwwat, but the definition of Zilli Nabi. And the last thing. I presented a reference to you. I said that in Ahmadiyyat, Fana fi Rasul (annihilation in the Prophet) is one thing, Maseel (likeness) is another, and Buruz is another. You did not touch this. So, address this reference first. And state the definition of Zilli Nabi. Thank you.

(Speaker: Saifi) [00:34:00] Okay, okay. Look, you are again asking for the definition of Zilli Nabi. Imtiaz Bhai, there is no contentious issue in the statement you are making about the community. I agree with it. I have no conflict with it. They are mentioning the name of the Prophet. Understand the point. When you only ask me, “What is a Zilli Nabi?” I will tell you this: someone who attains the status of prophethood in the obedience and following of a previous prophet. That is, he attains that status. Now you are asking, “What is Maqam-e-Nubuwwat and what is Zilli Nabi?”. He will attain the status of prophethood. Only then will he become a Zilli Nabi. So when you ask me for the definition of a Prophet, the name of any prophet will not be mentioned in it. Do you understand?. This is a small point. The statement you are making—that the Ahmadiyya Community says that if a person attains the status of prophethood by following Muhammad (S.A.W.), in obedience to Muhammad (S.A.W.), and by acquiring the perfections of Muhammad (S.A.W.), he will be called a Zilli Nabi—that statement is correct in its place. I have no disagreement with it. But if you ask me, “What is a Zilli Nabi?” I will give you a general definition. I will not name any prophet in it. I will say “a Prophet”. This was the disagreement. I said, “This is not the definition you are stating”. Yes, the statement you are making is different. I agree with it. I don’t disagree. Is the point clear to you, or should you raise it again?. Because this point has been going on for the last three or four turns. Okay. Then you said, “We are talking about Zilli Nabi, not Zilli Nubuwwat”. Brother, when Zilli Nubuwwat is ongoing, when it is accepted, then naturally a Prophet will also come accordingly. When this thing is accepted—that yes, this thing exists, there is a possibility (Imkan), it is open, it has not ended. Just as you yourself presented the writing of Mirza Sahib. He expressed the possibility of this thing. So now, what is the argument you have? What is the proof by which you say that a Zilli Nabi will not come, even though Mirza Sahib himself expressed the possibility?. Regarding what you said about Maseel (likeness), Buruz (manifestation), Zill (reflection)—that is not the subject of your and my debate. You should tell us about the actual issue. I am saying that the issue of definition is resolved, because you yourself presented the writing of Hazrat Masih Mau’ud (A.S.) stating that Zilli Nabi can come. Yes.

(Speaker: Imtiaz) [00:37:10] Okay, Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Rahim. First of all, I will address one thing: the aa sakta hai (can come) point. I have noted your point. Our entire discussion will proceed on this. But there are some things here that you are not clarifying. Okay. You said that “no name was taken”. Then the definition itself is wrong. Listen to. [Refers back to previous arguments about the definition of Zilli Nabi, citing in sequence, emphasizing that Fana fi Rasul is not Buruz and that Buruz is required for Zilli Nabi status, and demanding a reference for Saifi’s definition].

(Speaker: Saifi) [00:41:40] Wait. Okay, you are repeating the same point. [Saifi reiterates that the definition must be general, without mentioning Muhammad (S.A.W.) by name, and that he agrees that Mirza Sahib is the Zill of Muhammad (S.A.W.)]. [He confirms he will provide a reference for his definition of Zill from Maqabis-ul-Majalis]. [He refocuses on Imtiaz’s claim that no Nabi can come after Mirza Sahib, demanding the explicit prohibition from Mirza Sahib’s writings since Imtiaz himself cited the Imkan (possibility) reference].

(Speaker: Imtiaz) [00:44:40] [Interruption regarding time management and use of time by both speakers, citing in sequence].

[00:46:00] Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Rahim. [Imtiaz reiterates that the definition of Zilli Nabi is the decisive factor. He insists that Saifi’s definition based on obedience is wrong because obedience only leads to Siddiqiyat or Fana fi Rasul, while Zilli Nabi requires Kamil Zill/Buruz]. [He repeats that Zilli Nabi must be Muhammad Rasulullah by attaining all perfections. He challenges Saifi’s concept that any Prophet’s Zill could be a Zilli Nabi, stating that only the Kamil Zill of the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) can be a Zilli Nabi in Ahmadiyyat].

(Speaker: Saifi) [00:49:00] [Saifi accepts Imtiaz’s definition of Kamil Zill/Buruz being required but insists the dispute is only over whether the definition must be general or specific (with Muhammad’s name)]. [He demands the specific reference for the statement that Kamil Zill/Buruz is the definition of Zilli Nabi according to the Ahmadiyya Community, agreeing to proceed if the reference is satisfactory].

(Speaker: Imtiaz) [00:50:30] [Imtiaz confirms the definition Kamil Zill/Buruz is implied in “attaining all the perfections”. He provides the reference: Kalimatul Fasl, Review of Religions, March-April 1915, page 116, confirming its authority]. [A prayer break is taken].

(Speaker: Imtiaz – Post-Break) [00:52:45] [Imtiaz summarizes the key point established: The Zilli Nabi is the advent of the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) Himself, and the Seal is broken if a Ghair (stranger) comes. He argues that the concept of Imkan (possibility) is based on Jahalat (ignorance), as beliefs require definitive proof from the Quran. He states his core Argument 1: Mirza Sahib was the second advent, and Saifi must provide Quranic proof for a third advent.]

(Speaker: Saifi) [00:56:45] [Saifi points out that Imtiaz refuted his own claim by presenting Mirza Sahib’s text confirming the possibility of coming “a thousand times”. Saifi insists that the belief of “can come” (aa sakta hai) shows the door is open, and Imtiaz must provide a clear written prohibition from Mirza Sahib. He denies that he needs to provide Quranic verses; Imtiaz must prove his own claim that the coming has ended].

(Speaker: Imtiaz) [00:59:30] [Imtiaz argues that relying on Imkan (possibility) and refusing to provide Quranic verses proves that Ahmadiyyat’s claims about subsequent Zilli Prophets are based on Jahalat (ignorance). He repeats the challenge: Mirza Sahib was the second advent; provide Quranic proof for the third advent.]

(Speaker: Saifi) [01:03:00] [Saifi asserts that Imtiaz, as the claimant, failed to provide any text stating that Zilli Nubuwwat ended. He reiterates that Mirza Sahib’s statement that the Prophet can come a thousand times is their belief.]

(Speaker: Imtiaz) [01:06:20] [Imtiaz repeats Argument 1 (Deductive): Mirza Sahib was the second advent. Ahmadiyyat has no Quranic proof for a third advent. Without the third advent, no Zilli Nabi can come. Imtiaz presents Argument 2: The Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) is the authenticating seal. Mirza Sahib’s words (Malfuzat V. 5, p. 58) confirm that prophethood requires this seal. Imtiaz cites Tashhiz ul Azhan (No. 8, p. 25) stating the seal was affixed to only one.]

(Speaker: Saifi) [01:15:25] [Saifi argues that “authenticating one” does not mean “only one” will come, using the examples of previous Prophets. He demands the explicit text stating that the Prophet authenticated only one. He argues that the Tashhiz ul Azhan reference is the personal Ijtehad of a non-prophet and is irrelevant.]

(Speaker: Imtiaz) [01:36:20] [Imtiaz confirms that Mirza Sahib’s own words forbid prophethood without the seal. He argues that Mirza Sahib’s own statement (Tafsir): “He [the Prophet] only named one”. He points out Saifi’s misinterpretation of the Tashhiz ul Azhan text (applying it to the past) and uses the example of Krishn Kunhya’s prophethood (which lacks the required seal if applied to the past) to show the text must apply to the future. Imtiaz presents

Argument 3: Ruhani Khazain (V. 22, p. 406-407) and his sons’ interpretations confirm that Mirza Sahib is the “only specified individual (fard makhsus)” in the Ummah to be called Nabi.]

(Speaker: Saifi) [01:51:30] [Saifi rebuts Imtiaz’s claims by citing another Mirza Sahib reference (Anwar ul Ulum, p. 26) stating that Khatam un-Nabiyyin means Nabi ul Anbiya (Prophet of Prophets), whose Ummah has Prophets. This clearly implies continuation. Saifi argues that the exclusivity claimed by Imtiaz refers only to the time up to Mirza Sahib, not Qiyamah. He also insists that the seal mechanism is simply following Muhammad (S.A.W.), not needing a fresh divine authentication.]

(Speaker: Saifi) [02:40:00] [Saifi refutes the “Kamil person” argument, stating it is taken out of context regarding the specific era of Adamiyyat. He insists the Khilafat/Nubuwwat chain is eternal. Saifi explains that the fixation of Mursaleen numbers refers only to the sequence of Khulafa in the Muhammadi Ummah, ending with Mirza Sahib (the 13th), not the cessation of prophethood globally. Saifi reiterates that Khatam un-Nabiyyin means Nabi ul Anbiya, confirming continuous prophets.]

(Speaker: Imtiaz – Conclusion) [03:36:00] [Imtiaz performs the final conclusion, summarizing the key points: Argument 2 (The seal is necessary, but affixed only to one), and Argument 4 (No Kamil child born after Mirza Sahib, therefore no Zilli Nabi can arise). Imtiaz states that the lack of defense from Saifi proves his initial claim that the coming of Zilli Nabi has ended in Ahmadiyyat.]