Intro
A few days ago, a debate took place between Saleem Meer and Bro Imtiaz.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
00:40—-Saleem Meer says his only goal is to educate the viewers.
02:23—-Saleem Meer tells the viewers to behave properly in the live chat.
04:00—-Azim Saifi is allowed to speak and announces the details of his own upcoming debate.
06:20—-Bro Imtiaz finally speaks Imtiaz asks if 2 mins are OK for each speaker, with a 5 min intro.
07:53—-Bro Imtiaz starts his first 5 mins. Imtiaz tells the viewers to behave properly via the public chat.
08:30—-Bro Imtiaz explains how this is the first of 3 debates. The next debate will be on Saturday Jan-11 and the final debate will be on Jan-18.
09:20—-Bro Imtiaz begins with his opening statement. Imtiaz states that the most important thing here is that Ahmadi’s give their full aqida (beliefs) before they start.
09:53—-Bro Imtiaz continues to explain how Ahmadi’s hide their aqida on topics like prophethood and others. He also explains how the Ahmadiyya aqida is “khaas” and different from Sir Syed and Ghamidi.
10:14—Bro Imtiaz says that whomever gets caught hiding their aqida is Shakast (defeated).
10:24—Bro Imtiaz presents his Muqadma (case). He says that the enemies of Eisa (as) tried to capture him and hang him on a cross and thus kill him. Imtiaz says that however, Allah made 4 promises to Eisa (as) in 3:55 (3:56 in the Qadiani Quran). Bro Imtiaz explains how Allah promised to do “Waffa” on Eisa (as) and then raise him (Raffa) towards himself, then Allah will make Eisa (as) “paak” (clean) of the allegations on him and I will make your followers succeed in the world until Judgement Day. These are the 4 promises.
11:30—Bro Imtiaz explains how Allah perfectly completed this promise in 4:157–4:159. This is the aqida of Muslims, i.e., the enemies of Eisa (as) were not able to kill him, were not able to crucify him, but Allah lifted him towards himself, and will send him again to Earth before the Day of Judgement he will physically return, and Eisa (As) hasn’t died yet.
12:56—-Saleem Meer starts.
13:32—-Saleem Meer finally starts. Saleem Meer admits that he is bound by Ahmadiyya beliefs. Saleem Meer attacks Bro Imtiaz as a representative of Muslims. He asks Imtiaz if he considers Sir Syed/Ghamidi/Pervaizi/Ahle-Quran as Muslims? Saleem Meer points out how these 4 groups believe in the death of Eisa (as). Saleem Meer accuses Bro Imtiaz of not publicly accepting that he is a member of the Ahl-e-Hadeeth group. Saleem Meer asks if Bro Imtiaz is only representing the Ahl-e-Hadeeth position in a sarcastic manner. Saleem Meer alleges that Bro Imtiaz is in a tough spot since the Ahl-e-Hadeeth position is different than other groups. Saleem Meer alleges that Bro Imtiaz is already defeated since he is hiding his aqida. Saleem Meer demands that Bro Imtiaz answer this question in his next turn. Saleem Meer acknowledges the argument of the 4 promises of Allah as given in 3:55 and completed again in 4:157-158. Again, Saleem Meer says that Bro Imtiaz needs to confess to being Ahl-e-Hadith, he can call himself a Salafi too or Athari. Saleem Meer points out that when Bro Imtiaz was in the UK, he met with Deobandi’s who stated that Bro Imtiaz was Ahl-e-Hadeeth and Bro Imtiaz didn’t deny it. Saleem Meer even says in a rude way that just by looking at the shaving design on Bro Imtiaz’s face, he looks like a member of the Ahl-e-Hadeeth. Saleem Meer says that he doesn’t hide his beliefs in contrast, he is an Ahmadi and follows Khilafat, this Aqida is available online for the world to see.
18:52—-Bro Imtiaz responds, he quotes “Shahadatul Quran” (RK-6, page 298)(See page 4 online English edition) and argues that even MGA admitted that the return of Eisa (as) is thoroughly documents in the ahadith. Bro Imtiaz reminds Saleem Meer that MGA is his Hakam (judge). Bro Imtiaz tells Saleem Meer that MGA admitted that this is the overwhelming belief (Tawatur) of the vast majority of Muslims, school doesn’t matter. Again, Bro Imtiaz re-iterates that the vast majority of Muslims believe that Eisa (as) was physically lifted towards Allah and will physically return.
21:08—-Saleem Meer responds and again demands that Bro Imtiaz states his connection to the Ahl-e-Hadeeth school of thought. Saleem Meer demands an answer. Saleem Meer accuses Bro Imtiaz of avoiding the question and jumping around here and there. Saleem Meer says that Bro Imtiaz can read all of MGA’s books, it still won’t give the info on Bro Imtiaz’s aqida. Saleem Meer says that Bro Imtiaz tried to bound him inside the aqida of Jamaat Ahmadiyya (Khilafat). Saleem Meer boasts that he is not hiding the entire world knows of him. Saleem Meer accuses Bro Imtiaz of hiding his aqida. Saleem Meer boasts that if Bro Imtiaz presents his aqida, he will destroy it. Saleem Meer says in a sarcastic way that Bro Imtiaz can read all of MGA’s books and other writings, it won’t benefit Bro Imtiaz. Saleem Meer has asked about the aqida of Bro Imtiaz, not the books of MGA.
23:20—-Bro Imtiaz responds, he explains that he quoted how MGA admitted (Via “Shahadatul Quran”, RK-6, page 298 (urdu edition), See page 4 online English edition) that the vast majority of Muslims belief in the physical return (Nuzul) of Eisa (as). Bro Imtiaz explains how MGA didn’t call the belief in the physical Nuzul of Eisa (as) as belonging to certain schools of Muslims, only, nay! MGA called it the overwhelming belief (Tawatur) of the vast majority of Muslims. Bro Imtiaz explains how Muslims believed it would be the same Eisa (as) and not a new person, this was also part of the overwhelming belief (Tawatur) of the vast majority of Muslims and would remain a prophet. Bro Imtiaz explain how MGA differed on this last point and alleged that Eisa (as) would be someone from the Muslim Ummah.
25:28—-Saleem Meer responds and cries that Bro Imtiaz again didn’t answer his question about what school he is affiliated with. Saleem accuses Imtiaz of hiding his aqida again. Saleem Meer refuses to give his aqida, he alleges that Bro Imtiaz already knows it. Saleem Meer doesn’t understand why Imtiaz is hiding his aqida. Saleem Meer says that since Imtiaz is a member of the Ahl-e-Hadeeth school, he can’t represent Deobandi’s, Shia’s or anyone else, he must only represent the Ahl-e-Hadeeth school. Saleem sarcastically says that these other schools would never allow Imtiaz to be there representative. Saleem quotes Ahmad Raza Khan (Baralvi school) and alleges his beliefs to be contradictory. Saleem says that Imtiaz can never be the representative of ALL Muslims.
27:36—-Bro Imtiaz responds and says that he shouldn’t have used the word “Shakast” (defeated), he takes them back. Imtiaz says nevertheless, both of us should give our full aqida. Imtiaz reminds Saleem that the topic of their debate is what beliefs do Muslims hold about Eisa (as). Imtiaz again gives the aqida of Muslims being, Eisa (as) was killed, he wasn’t crucified, but Allah lifted him towards himself, these are from clear cut verses of the Quran. Imtiaz explains how Saleem tried to give the impression that Shia’s/Deobandi’s and etc. differ on these beliefs, Saleem is wrong in his assertion. Imtiaz says if he is wrong then Saleem should present the aqida of a Muslim is currently alive which contradicts this (Imtiaz added the physical Nuzool too).
29:54—-Saleem Meer responds and says that he is the questioner and Imtiaz is the answerer, thus, it is not his job to answer. Saleem says that Bro Imtiaz is only supposed to give daleel (evidence/proof) when Saleem asks for it. Saleem says he doesn’t understand why Imtiaz is scared in public to give his aqida. Saleem says he is an Ahmadi, followers of MGA who claims to be the Maseeh-e-Maood (Promised Messiah), who Muhammad (saw) allegedly prophesied, and we believe in Khilafat, this is our belief. However, Saleem argues that Imtiaz keeps hiding his connection to the Ahl-e-Hadeeth school. Saleem demands to know what firqa Imtiaz is representing. Then Saleem says who gave Imtiaz the right to represent anyone? Saleem alleges that the beliefs of the Ahl-e-Hadeeth school don’t match any other school. Saleem argues that Ahmad Raza Khan disagreed with the beliefs of Imtiaz.
32:12—-Bro Imtiaz responds, he says that he only mentioned these 4 schools (Deobandi, Barelvi, Shia and Ahl-e-Hadeeth) in response to Saleem. Imtiaz reminds Saleem that their discussion is on a “khaas aqida” (special beliefs of the Ahmadiyya group). Imtiaz asked for an alim (scholarly teacher of religion) who is alive. We are talking about aqida. Imtiaz is challenging Saleem (but doesn’t want to use this word) to show an example from an alim (teachers)(who is currently alive) that his beliefs on Eisa (As) are fundamentally different. Imtiaz states that Saleem is giving a Taassur (impression) that Ahmad Raza Khan (ra) disagrees with the beliefs about Eisa (as) (see the 4 promises) that were presented by Imtiaz earlier. Imtiaz ended by saying, if you want to hear the beliefs of Muslims, I will stay, if not, I can leave.
34:30—-Saleem responds and keeps crying about Imtiaz allegedly hiding his beliefs. Saleem says that it’s OK for Imtiaz to confess that he is hiding his beliefs because of security reasons. Saleem sarcastically states that Imtiaz wants to bring the aqida of any given alim, however, he hides his own beliefs. Saleem alleges that Imtiaz came here to discuss but won’t give his own aqida. Saleem alleges that Ahmadi’s always announce their beliefs. Saleem asks Imtiaz to denounce the beliefs of the Ahl-e-Hadeeth school.
36:45—Imtiaz responds and says, everyone has heard, I have given my aqida. If Saleem asks for “mutalba” (demand) anything, I will play the audio wherein Saleem asked Imtiaz to explain his aqida via the Quran, not via any school. Imtiaz advises Saleem to stop this deadlock, Imtiaz has already given his beliefs. If Saleem Meer keeps doing “firqa firqa”, it will not benefit anyone.
38:42—-Saleem asks to change the time to 1-minute each. Saleem says he doesn’t care, if he has to sit here for 6 hours, he won’t stop until Bro Imtiaz confesses to being a member of the Ahl-e-Hadeeth school. Imtiaz says keep at 2 mins, you can say whatever. Saleem asks again to change it to 1-minute each, Imtiaz says no. Nevertheless, they both agreed at 2 mins.
39:33—-Saleem starts again, he again asks what school (Deobandi, Barelvi, Shia or Ahl-e-Hadeeth) Imtiaz has affiliation with. Saleem says that he saw a video when Imtiaz was in the UK wherein a Deobandi Alim called Imtiaz as Ahl-e-Hadeeth and how nevertheless, they were working against Qadianism in a united way. So what is the issue now? Saleem cries that he was forcibly bound by Imtiaz, however, Imtiaz won’t do the same. Saleem says that when that Deobandi alim called Imtiaz as Ahl-e-Hadeeth, Imtiaz didn’t say NO.
41:42—-Imtiaz explains how he has given his aqida, which is the aqida of Muslims. Imtiaz reminds Saleem that he quoted MGA (See “Shahadatul Quran”, RK-6, page 298, See page 4 online English edition) and how MGA even admitted that Muslims agree on the physical return of Eisa (as).
42:28—-Saleem Meer interrupts and says that he is the questioner and Imtiaz the respondent and thus, Imtiaz will answer when asked to do so. Saleem argues that Imtiaz can’t just say whatever he wants, he must answer the questions posed to him. Saleem says that before he refers to here any daleel (explanation), until Imtiaz answers the question of his affiliation to which school. Saleem says that once Imtiaz gives his school of thought, only then can the beliefs of Imtiaz be ascertained. Saleem Meer says that Imtiaz should understand that the only thing he can do is answer Saleem’s direct question, he is not allowed to quote Cinderella (like Razi said). Saleem Meer said that Bro Imtiaz isn’t answering the question.
46:54—Bro Imtiaz says that he should just give his closing statement then, since this discussion is going nowhere.
47:07—-Saleem Meer interrupts again. Saleem Meer is flustered as he can’t understand why Bro Imtiaz won’t give his firqa.
47:57—-Bro Imtiaz starts again…and asks Saleem Meer to remain quiet.
48:00—-Saleem Meer interrupts again and says that if Imtiaz doesn’t give his firqa, he will keep interrupting.
48:30—-Bro Imtiaz starts again. Imtiaz says that Saleem Meer hasn’t answered any question and keeps interrupting. Imtiaz says that Saleem was agitated about being bound to the Ahmadiyya position, however, Imtiaz explains that he also explained that in terms of the alleged death of Eisa (As), Ghamidi has a different view, Sir Syed had a different view/belief and the Ahmadiyya Movement had a view/belief that didn’t match either of them or anyone else. Imtiaz reminds Saleem that the Ahmadiyya Movement has a unique view/belief. Imtiaz reminds Saleem that when he started, he was simply asking Saleem Meer to stick to his unique beliefs. Imtiaz reminds Saleem that he didn’t put any label on him, nor did he do any disrespect, the viewers will decide that there is nothing wrong in this advisory. Imtiaz reminds Saleem that he came here to talk about those topics which were already agreed on. Imtiaz tells Saleem that in his next turn, he will explain where and when there was any decision to talk about any firqa as such. There was no such discussion on you being allowed to ask me what my firqa is…and then stubbornly refusing to move forward for over 40 minutes of back and forth. Imtiaz reminds Saleem that he had agreed to talk about some specific topics, Saleem must now show from our agreement where there was questions about firqa as such. Imtiaz reminds Saleem that a few days ago, he went onto Saleem Meer’s TikTok live and was there to talk to you about this very debate, you agreed that I would be allowed to show my aqida from the Quran. And now you have added the clause “Quttaya Dalala” (clear cut explanation) verse. Imtiaz reminds Saleem that he has already presented his aqida on Eisa (as), just like he promised. Imtiaz says, “what type of conversation is this?”. Imtiaz reminds Saleem that he was supposed to have a debate on just those few topics which were agreed upon. What are you doing? Imtiaz says that if Saleem Meer keeps going in circles, then, this debate is a waste of time. Imtiaz says he will not entertain the nonsense of Saleem Meer, he will only give his arguments.
52:36—-Saleem Meer begins. Saleem says he is the questioner and Imtiaz is the respondent. Saleem says it’s strange that Imtiaz is talking about ijma of Muslims about the life of Eisa (as)(about still being alive), and at the same time is mentioning that Ghamidi and Sir Syed believe that Eisa (as) died. Saleem says, if I can show you a writing, from a well qualified alim (teacher) from any firqa of Muslims, which states that Muslims have differing beliefs on Eisa (as), then what? Saleem says that Imtiaz’s entire program would be ended right then and there (in a sarcastic way). Saleem says that Ahmadi’s always give their aqida, it’s always announced, it’s written Ahmadi-Muslim. People know that we (Ahmadi’s) believe that Eisa (as) died and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is the Mahdi and Messiah, and they hold a belief in Khatme Nubuwwat, which allows an Ummati Nabi to appear. Saleem says that everyone knows the Ahmadi position, why is Imtiaz hiding his own position. Saleem keeps asking why. Saleem acknowledges that Imtiaz is more advanced than himself in religious matters. Saleem alleges that Imtiaz probably went to a Madrassa. Saleem alleges that he hasn’t watched too many of Imtiaz’s video’s (this is a lie). Saleem says that he knows that Imtiaz is a member of the Australian Council of Ulema and is like a working professional. Saleem says that he doesn’t know if Imtiaz is University educated or not. Saleem says nevertheless, he doesn’t understand why Imtiaz is hiding his belief. Saleem mentions a story of a Christian boy named Ahmad who worked with Ahmadi’s for many years, and Ahmadi’s thought he was an Ahmadi, however, he had been hiding his identity for many years just to stay alive. Saleem Meer sarcastically says that there is nothing that Imtiaz can say today that he has not heard in his life (55:32). Saleem says he knows all of the questions and their answers. He says, what has shocked me is that you bound me (to the Ahmadi position) and then refused to give your own aqida. Saleem says that Imtiaz claimed ijma, however, he mentioned Ghamidi (who has hundreds of thousands of followers) and Sir Syed (he has 10 million followers, crore)(this is a lie). Saleem says the Pervaizi firqa also believes in the alleged death of Eisa (as). Saleem alleges that a group of Muslims who fell off from the Ahl-e-Hadeeth school named “Jamaat ul Muslimeen”, who have hundreds of thousands and 10 million+ (crore-o) also believe in the death of Eisa (as). Saleem Meer alleges that even before MGA, many Muslims believed in the death of Eisa (as). Saleem mentions Ahmad Raza Khan again. Saleem alleges that Imtiaz wants to be everyone’s representative, but then hide his firqa. Saleem says that he has always announced himself as an Ahmadi. He even made websites wherein the word Ahmady was used. Saleem says that his family was the first one to become Ahmadi in 4 villages and 4 cities. Saleem says they have never tried to hide, everyone knows his family. Saleem says why is Imtiaz hiding his firqa. Saleem Meer says that Muslims have always differed on the life and alleged death of Eisa (as) and have rarely agreed on anything. Saleem Meer repeats that many people have said that Eisa (as) has died, Ghamdi, Sir Syed, Pervaizi, Chakralvi, “Jamaat ul Muslimeen”. At 59:11, Saleem Meer says that he doesn’t show his face only because his life is at risk. Saleem says when Muslims get tired of hearing from Ahmadi’s they go and kill them. Saleem says that he lived his entire life in Pakistan as an Ahmadi and everyone knew it, his family didn’t hide under the bed. Saleem says he proudly announces that he is an Ahmadi and he wants Imtiaz to do the same in his next turn.
At 1:00:52, Saleem Meer tells Bro Imtiaz that he has 2 minutes to explain.
At 1:00:57, Bro Imtiaz says to Saleem that you just spoke uninterrupted for 8+ minutes, am I allowed to also do the same?
At 1:01:01, Saleem Meer interrupts and says that he will give Imtiaz 8 minutes also, however, he has to first give his aqida in a 2 min session.
At 1:01:30, Bro Imtiaz responds and explains how Ijma is from the sahaba and cannot be broken. Imtiaz explains how ijma is 100%. Imtiaz explains how there isn’t a single ruling in the Quran or hadith which has 100% ijma.
At 1:03:27, something fishy was going on with Bro Imtiaz’s mic. Imtiaz reminds Saleem that he only spoke about the topics that were previously agreed upon and never went outside that parameter. Bro Imtiaz said that Saleem wasted one hour on this. Bro Imtiaz reminds Saleem Meer that he said that it was not possible for Imtiaz to present an argument which he (Saleem) had never heard before. Imtiaz then promises to present an argument (daleel) that Saleem has never seen in his life. Imtiaz says it again.
At 1:05:18, Saleem Meer interrupts while Imtiaz still has 4 mins left and proposes to go in rounds of 2 minute each (8 minutes were not given).
At 1:06:15, Bro Imtiaz continues with his muqadma. Bro Imtiaz repeats his previous argument that in 3:55, Allah made promises to Eisa (as)(Waffa and Raffa). Bro Imtiaz says that in 3:55, Waffa and Raffa hadn’t happened yet, it was simply a promise. Bro Imtiaz says where did this promise find its completion (Takmeel)(it was completed in 4:157-159). Imtiaz explains how Allah first addressed the enemies of Eisa (as) in 4:157 and told us that they didn’t kill Eisa (as), nor was Eisa (as) hung on the cross. Allah ended this verse with “Yaqinan” (meaning, they weren’t sure themselves). Imtiaz says that the word “Yaqinan” only appears once in the Quran (1:07:54). Imtiaz says, the question arises, what happened, in the next verse (4:158) the answer is given, Allah lifted Eisa (as) towards himself.
At 1:08:18, Saleem Meer responds. Saleem acknowledges that Imtiaz has presented his aqida with these verses. Saleem says, however, the topic is that Eisa (as) is still alive (Hyat-e-Maseeh). Saleem Meer mentions a 2000-year old Eisa (as) and him being physically alive in the heavens (Samaa Wattay). Saleem says that Imtiaz believe in those verses, however, not the interpretation that Imtiaz is giving. Saleem says he wanted to see where it is written that Eisa (as) was physically lifted to heaven, with his earthly body in these verses and he hasn’t seen it.
Saleem says that Imtiaz had alleged that he would present a daleel (explanation) that Saleem has never seen before, that didn’t happen says Saleem. Saleem says that he had heard this argument from Imtiaz when he was a little boy and the response to it. Saleem says he thought Imitaz was going to present something new, this is not new. Saleem says that the Ahmadi response is known to children and has been responded to 10 million+ times. Saleem then implores Imtiaz to answer these questions in his turn.
At 1:10:20, Bro Imtiaz responds, he says that Muslims believe in these verses of the Quran and this is my/our aqida in terms of Eisa (as). Imtiaz acknowledges that Saleem and Ahmadi’s differ on their interpretations of the same verses. Imtiaz explains how in 4:158, Allah uses “Bal Rafa’a hoo”, the hoo being a masculine noun used for Eisa (as) is what Muslims have used to prove that Eisa (as) was taken with his physical body. Imtiaz asks Saleem to give his interpretations (murad) of these verses.
At 1:12:16, Saleem Meer starts, he immediately rebukes those people on TikTok who keep requesting to be brought onto the screen. Saleem says no one will be allowed on the screen anyways, so what’s the point? Saleem said calm down and watch, this is a distraction for him. Saleem says that we both accept these verses of the Quran, however, the topic is “Hyat-e-Maseeh”. Saleem Meer says the topic is that Eisa (as) was born, but he never died. Saleem puts the verses on the screen and goes over his 2 minutes, at which point Imtiaz says it’s OK. Saleem asks Imtiaz to explain the verses again with them put on the screen.
At 1:15:40, Imtiaz says that he has already read the verse 3 times and gave detailed commentary. Imtiaz presents the 4 promises in 3:55 again. These promises were completed in 4:157-159. Imtiaz specifically highlights 4:158 and how Allah physically lifted Eisa (as) towards himself.
At 1:17:45, Saleem starts with an attack on Bro Imtiaz and says that Imtiaz boasted about presenting a new argument which he (saleem) had never heard before. Saleem accuses Imtiaz of getting a phone call…however, Imtiaz says NO…I didn’t get any call. Saleem interrupts and says, “you went into the background, so I thought you must have gotten a phone call”. Saleem asks Imtiaz if he is listening, Saleem continues and says that he thought Imtiaz was going to present something which he (saleem) had never heard before. Saleem says that he has already heard this explanation and knows the answer to it. At 1:18:28, Saleem gives (Saleem interpretted ‘Rafay oka’ as “Darjat boland karay ga apnee janab may”= “rank will be elevated for my sir”). Saleem reads 3:55 and says that the appellation “hoo”, and whomever gave this argument to Imtiaz is totally wrong, a childish argument which is also weak. In terms of 3:55, Saleem says that all souls of humans will go towards Allah. Saleem quotes the Quranic verbiage when a Muslim dies (Saleem says when a Muslim is in trouble), “inna lillah, wa inna alaihay arjaion”. Saleem argues that this is only the soul, not the physical body. Saleem argues that when humans die, their souls go towards Allah, not the physical body. Saleem aruges that “hoo” means nothing in 4:158. Saleem argues that he can present countless examples from the Quran wherein “hoo” doesn’t mean as such. Saleem argues that “elay-aa” in 3:55 proves that all people will go towards Allah at death.
At 1:20:06, Bro Imtiaz highlights 3:55 and argues that Saleem didn’t pay attention to last few words. Imtiaz proves that this will happen on the Day of Judgement. Imtiaz also points out that Saleem made a huge blunder with the example of “elay-aa” in 3:55, since on the Day of Judgement he will have a physical body. Thus, the last few sentences of 3:55 don’t help Saleem at all. Imtiaz points out how Saleem translated/intepretted “wa Rafay oka elay-aa” in 3:55 (Saleem interpretted it as “Darjat boland karay ga apnee janab may”= “rank will be elevated for my sir”), Imtiaz asks where did Saleem get this from? Imtiaz is direct quoting Saleem and asking for clarification on how this is connected with “wa Rafay oka elay-aa” in 3:55. Imtiaz points out that when Ahmadi’s argue with Muslims they ask to see specific words like “Asman” (heavens) and jism (physical body). Imtiaz says that in Saleem’s next turn he needs to show this. Imtiaz reminds Saleem that “wa Rafay oka elay-aa” in 3:55 found its completion in 4:157-159. Imtiaz says he will not let this blunder go.
At 1:22:10, Saleem responds, he asks for additional details about these 4 promises in 3:55. Saleem acknowledged that Imtiaz believes that Imtiaz believes “wa Rafay oka elay-aa” in 3:55 to mean that Eisa (as) would be lifted physically to heaven (with body), whereas Saleem Meer alleges that it means, “Darjat boland karay ga apnee janab may”= “rank will be elevated for my sir”. Saleem Meer reviews Imtiaz’s argument that “hoo” (in 4:158) means with physical body. Saleem says that this is a weak argument. Saleem presents 2:156 (2:157 in the Qadiani Quran), Saleem argues that the first “inna” in this verse infers the “soul” only. *It should be noted that MGA never used this argument. Saleem argues that 2:156 proves that only the ruh (soul) goes towards Allah.
At 1:24:24, Imtiaz starts again and comments on the methodology of Saleem Meer, Imtiaz had asked him many clarifying questions that were ignored by Saleem. Imtiaz explains how Saleem asked 3 questions and didn’t address any of Imtiaz’s arguments. Again, Imtiaz asks Saleem to clarify what he meant when he gave the interpretation of “Darjat boland karay ga apnee janab may”= “rank will be elevated for my sir” for “wa Rafay oka elay-aa” in 3:55. Imtiaz says that Saleem asked for clarification as to who Waffa (mutawafeeka) was done upon, Imtiaz says it was done upon Eisa (as) who is specifically mentioned in the verse. Imtiaz then explains how grammatically Waffa (mutawafeeka) refers to Eisa (as). In closing, Imtiaz says that in his next turn, Saleem must explain how “Darjat boland karay ga apnee janab may”= “rank will be elevated for my sir” for “wa Rafay oka elay-aa” in 3:55.
At 1:26:17, Saleem says that it is a good thing that Imtiaz has abandoned his first argument, since it was so weak, i.e., “Bal Rafa’a hoo”, the hoo being a masculine noun used for Eisa (as) is what Muslims have used to prove that Eisa (as) was taken with his physical body. Saleem alleges that via 2:156 he has disproved this entire line of argumentation. Saleem argues that only the Ruh (soul) comes from Allah anyways, not the body. Saleem argues that even the sahaba said 2:156 of the Quran in their daily speech and it never meant with the physical body. Saleem boasts that Imtiaz presented a weak argument, and didn’t solve anything or give proof of anything. Saleem argues that every single person’s ruh (soul) will go towards Allah, everyeone will die and has died. Saleem tells Imtiaz that he has to prove that Eisa (as) went physically to the heavens and is sitting there right now with Allah. Where is that?
At 1:28:20, Imtiaz starts again, he explains how Saleem accused him of abandoning the previous argument of “Bal Rafa’a hoo”, the hoo being a masculine noun used for Eisa (as) is what Muslims have used to prove that Eisa (as) was taken with his physical body. Saleem even called it weaker than some type of screen/shield (makhree ka jalaa). Imtiaz explains how Saleem had asked about “muwafeeka” and who this was about. Imtiaz explains how he presented 3:55 and explained how Eisa (as) was mentioned specifically, and thus, this is about him. Imitaz says now I will present my first argument again (and will conclude it), Imtiaz re-explains how he presented 3:55 and (Waffa and Raffa) and how these promises were completed in 4:157-159. Imtiaz points out Saleem hasn’t given any answer to “Bal Rafa’a hoo”, the hoo being a masculine noun used for Eisa (as) is what Muslims have used to prove that Eisa (as) was taken with his physical body. Imtiaz points out a blunder by Saleem. Inititally, Saleem had argued that “Darjat boland karay ga apnee janab may”= “rank will be elevated for my sir” for “wa Rafay oka elay-aa” in 3:55. However, Saleem didn’t use this for 3:55 and abandoned it. Again, Imtiaz asks for clarification on this last point.
At 1:30:31, Saleem starts again, Saleem says that Imtiaz is wrong for saying that he didn’t answer how the “hoo” in “Bal Rafa’a hoo”, is a masculine noun used for Eisa (as) to show that Eisa (as) was taken with his physical body. Saleem alleges that he has answered this question via 2:156. Saleem says that he can give countless references that prove this case from the Quran. Saleem says again that Rafa’a only means the ruh (soul) goes towards Allah, not the body. Saleem again quotes 2:156 and presents the same argument, i.e., that only our soul can ever go towards Allah. Saleem says that wherever Imtiaz learned this argument (the “hoo” in “Bal Rafa’a hoo”, is a masculine noun used for Eisa (as) to show that Eisa (as) was taken with his physical body), that person was also wrong.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
Links and Related Essay’s
Who is Saleem Meer? Aka Mindroaster Mir? – ahmadiyyafactcheckblog
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
Tags
#ahmadiyya #ahmadiyyafactcheckblog #messiahhascome #ahmadiyyat #trueislam #ahmadianswers #mirzaghulamahmad #qadiani #qadianism
January 7, 2025 at 8:25 pm
Salam Alaikum Brother, your effort is priceless…