I am having a discussion with an Ahmadi on my Facebook discussion forum. However, the issue is, he is the classic “no-brain-Ahmadi”, or he isn’t capable of questioning the Mirza family and thus unable to properly hold a discussion on this topic, on top of all of that, his time on the internet is irregular and not suited for any academic discussion. I have repeatedly asked him many second and third round questions, however, they are all over his dead, nonetheless, I continue with him…..
I posted rules, but, he didn’t read or understand them
Right…and you have to give me a topic also….
For example..>I agreed to your topic. You should agree to another discussion on a topic of my choice. Does that make sense? That’s fair. And we can have discussions simultaneously.
1. We start from the writings of MGA…then find his comments on quran and hadith.
2. We establish facts first. For example, when did MGA first write that the Messiah=mahdi. Does that make sense?
3. You are expected to have read at least all of the english books from your website…and lots of urdu excerpts.
4. We need a verification of hadith acceptance? What system did MGA use? What system do Muslims use?
5. No personal jabs or rudeness, or jokes, or arrogancy.
He refuses to establish the first fact, which is “”When did MGA claim to be the Mahdi?”
Rule #1 and 2 are over his head. He doesn’t understand them. The reason is, his Mullah’s have never taught this type of introspection. I have asked him repeatedly in terms of when MGA claimed to be “the Mahdi”. As we all know, there is lots of controversy on this topic. Since MGA never really claimed to be the long-awaited Mahdi as promised in hadith reports.
In hadith reports (Sunni hadith, not shia), it is clear that “The Mahdi” will be descendant of Muhammad (saw) and rule over the Arabs, check it out: See here also: https://ahmadiyyafactcheckblog.com/2017/09/09/hadith-on-the-mahdi-scans-and-etc/
“”The world will not come to pass until a man from among my family, whose name will be my name, rules over the Arabs.”” (Tirmidhi Sahih, Vol. 9, P. 74; Abu Dawud, Sahih, Vol. 5, P. 207;
also narrated by Ali b. Abi Talib, Abu Sa’id, Umm Salma, Abu Hurayra).
Additional hadith that this Ahmadi has never read in his life
“”Allah will bring out from concealment al-Mahdi from my family and just before the day of Judgment; even if only one day were to remain in the life of the world, and he will spread on this earth justice and equity and will eradicate tyranny and oppression.””
(Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, Vol. 1, P. 99)
“””Even if only a day remains for Qiyamah to come, yet Allah will surely send a man from my family who will fill this world with such justice and fairness, just as it initially was filled with oppression.”””
“”The promised Mahdi will be among my family. God will make the provisions for his emergence within a single night.”””
(Ibn Majah, Sahih, Vol. 2, P. 519)
“””The promised Mahdi will be among my progeny, among the descendants of Fatima.”””
(Abu Dawud, Sahih, Vol. 2, P. 207; Ibn Majah, Sahih, Vol. 2, P. 519)
“””The Mahdi will be of my family, of the descendants of Fatima (the Prophet’s daughter)”””. (Sunan Ibn Majah, Vol. 2, Tradition No. 4086)
“””Al-Mahdi is one of us, the members of the household (Ahlul-Bayt).”””
(Sunan Ibn Majah, Vol. 2, Tradition No. 4085)
“””Our Mahdi will have a broad forehead and a pointed (prominent) nose. He will fill the earth with justice as it is filled with injustice and tyranny. He will rule for seven years.”””
(Abu Dawud, Sahih, Vol. 2, p. 208; Fusul al-muhimma, p. 275)
“””After the death of a Ruler there will be some dispute between the people. At that time a citizen of Madina will flee (from Madina) and go to Makkah. While in Makkah, certain people will approach him between Hajrul Aswad and Maqaame Ibraheem, and forcefully pledge their allegiance to him.
Thereafter a huge army will proceed from Syria to attack him but when they will be at Baida, which is between Makkah and Madina, they will be swallowed into the ground.
On seeing this, the Abdaals of Shaam as well as large numbers of people from Iraq will come to him and pledge their allegiance to him. Then a person from the Quraish, whose uncle will be from the Bani Kalb tribe will send an army to attack him, only to be overpowered, by the will of Allah. This (defeated) army will be that of the Bani Kalb. Unfortunate indeed is he who does not receive a share from the booty of the Kalb. This person (Imam Mahdi) will distribute the spoils of war after the battle. He will lead the people according to the Sunnat and during his reign Islam will spread throughout the world. He will remain till seven years (since his emergence). He will pass away and the Muslims will perform his Janazah salaat.”””
“””A group of my Ummah will fight for the truth until near the day of judgment when Jesus, the son of Marry, will descend, and the leader of them will ask him to lead the prayer, but Jesus declines, saying: “No, Verily, among you Allah has made leaders for others and He has bestowed his bounty upon them.”””
“””What will be your reaction when the son of Mary (Jesus) descends and your Imam is from among yourselves?”””
(Sahih Muslim, bab nuzul ‘isa, Vol. 2; Sahih Bukhari, kitab bad’ al-khalq wa nuzul ‘isa, Vol. 4)
“””What would be your situation if the Son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends upon you and your Imam is from among you?””
(Bukhari, kitabul-Anbiya, Chapter Nuzul Isa bin Maryam)
The Quran tells us that Esa (As) the son of Mary didn’t die, he was lifted to Allah, and hasn’t died yet, and will thus return
Just read the Quran, 4:157 to 4:159. Then read the hadith reports in Bukhari and Muslim, they clearly indicate that Esa (as), the son of Mary will return, not anyone else. In arabic, his name is Esa (as) the son of Maryam, which proves that this is one person and could never be anyone else, in older times, this is how someone was described, and since Esa (As) didnt have a biological father, he was called the son of Maryam, and thus, this could be no one else, especially not a descendant of Ali (ra).
See Tafsir Ibn Kathir on 4:157–159
(157. And because of their saying, “We killed Al-Masih `Isa, son of Maryam, the Messenger of Allah,” but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it appeared as that to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not.) (158. But Allah raised him up unto Himself. And Allah is Ever All-Powerful, All-Wise.) (159. And there is none of the People of the Scripture, but must believe in him, before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection, he will be a witness against them.)
Ibn Kathir quoted many hadith
This is where Ahmadis play dumb, or change the subject, the problem is that they believe whatever their mullahs them, and very indiscriminately. Anything any Ahmadi mullah tells these hard-core Ahmadis…they immediately believe it and never double check.
This Ahmadi incorrectly quoted Ibn Kathir on the Mahdi
Another note, since this Ahmadi is brainless and never double checks the references that his Mullah’s give him, he has been academically dishonest. He tried to quote Ibn Kathir on the Mahdi, and he gave a half-quote, however, I have the full reference and proves his error. As soon as he admits to it..I will post it.
MGA and his teams position in 1891
“ admit the fact/idea that many Mahdis might have appeared previously too and it is possible that [some] may appear in the future too and it is possible that some Mahdi might appear with the name Imaam Muhammad but the manner in which the public has this notion [in their mind], there is no evidence for that.” [RK-3/379 Izala-e-Auham, See Ref P# 5b-39]
MGA and his teams position, later on in 1898
“[T]he truth is that no Mahdi will [or, is expected to] appear from the progeny of Fatimah [the daughter of the Holy Prophet]. And all such Ahadees are inauthentic and unreal and artificial; these were probably manufactured during the period of the `Abbaasee [Abbasid] monarchy/rule and the correct and true extent [of the matter] is only this much that a statement has been made [about] a person [who] was to appear upon the name of `Eesaa [Jesus], peace be on him …” [RK-14/193 Kashf-ul-Ghitaa; published 1898, See Ref P# 5b-114]