"Truthfulness" Or Falsehood Of Mirza Ghulam Qadiani, Debate-3, Bro Imtiaz (questioner) vs. Saleem Meer (respondent) 1-18-25-Part-2, 15:26 to 28:32

Intro
On 1-18-25, Bro Imtiaz debated Saleem Meer on the topic of “Truthfulness” Or Falsehood Of Mirza Ghulam Qadiani. This is part of a 4 series debate. The first was on 1-4-25, Part-2 was on 1-11-25, and Part-3 was today. The final debate is Amir Haq vs. Saleem Meer on the topic of Yuz Asaf, this was supposed to have been done 4 years ago, however, Saleem Meer ran off and refused.

Saleem spoke very disrespectfully about Muhammad (saw)(see herein on twitter and tiktok).

The full review is in the below….check out Part-1 herein.

*–my personal notes.

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15:26, Saleem starts, he says that MGA is true in his claims. For this, I will present a verse of the Quran as proof. In this verse, Allah tells us about the previous prophets and how they were established as truthful. In the Quran, Allah has presented the life of any prophet before his claims as evidence, this is the daleel of Allah. Allah said that the life before claims (*of prophethood) will be evidence. In terms of the previous life, what testimonies have people given! Saleem presents 10:16 (Surah Younus)(10:17 in the Kadiani Koran). Saleem read the verse in Arabic. Saleem argues that this verse is a touchstone to find the truthfulness of any claimant, this is the daleel of sadaqat (*explanation of truthfulness). Whatever I say, is from the Quran (from inside the Quran), I won’t present made, up ideas/formula’s from people (that they have made themselves), this is what the deniers of previous prophets did. I believe in the Quran and will present that and I want that to be the thing that brings a conclusion to our dispute.

17:31, Bro Imtiaz starts, He tells Saleem that he shouldn’t present things as daleel until he is asked for them. I am the questioner and you have to answer! Don’t quote from your pocketbook or your copy (notes written on paper)! You have been doing that on your live streams, we have no concern with that! You said you want a decision from the Quran. You have to tell me, in terms of the Quranic belief in Tauhid. Is it possible to believe in Allah as having an infinite number of hands and feet like a Tendwa (*Octopus, see pages 61 and 62)? Can someone say that per the Quran, is it OK to say that Allah is inside of me? Can a Muslim say that Allah was inside of him (via mojazan)(*all the refs are herein)? Per Tauhid in the Quran, will someone say (*See footnotes, Haqiqatul Wahi, Online English edition, Pages 123-124. 2018 edition)(RK-22, page 106 in Urdu). Per Tauhid in the Quran, has anybody been given the ability to bring the dead back to life (*See Barahin-i-Ahmadiyya-5, page 153)(RK-16, page 56 in Urdu, via Khutbah ilhamia)? Did Allah give anyone the power of “Kun Fa Ya Kun”? (*See Barahin-i-Ahmadiyya-5, page 153). What kind of things are you saying? You shouldn’t be reading from the copy (pocketbook). If you want to Raffa my question/contention, that’s ok, do bismillah and do it. However, if you want to read off of your copy, there is nothing there. The other thing is, read your own books! Per the intellect of Mirza sahib, a bhungee (marijuana user), a chor (thief), someone who has bad behaviors (bad kiddar), can become a prophet! (See Rk-15, Tiryaq ul Qulub, pages 279-280). You should remember this! The part about kiddar (behaviors) will be presented after you answer about per the religion of MGA a chor (thief), a bhungee (marijuana user), someone who has bad behaviors (bad kiddar), can he become a prophet or not? (See Rk-15, Tiryaq ul Qulub, pages 279-280). Write down this question! After that, in terms of “Aqida Risalat” (belief on messengership). Everybody note this! What was MGAQ aqida on risalat? Naozobillah, MGA argued that Muhammad (Saw) failed in his mission (fareeza) (naozobillah) or wasn’t able to complete his mission (fareeza) and thus his 2nd coming was required to complete his mission via Baruz (RK-17, page 262). You should read it! MGA was calling himself Muhammad (saw) Rasul-Ullah, this is Kufr. MGA doesn’t believe in Islamic Tauhid, nor does he believe in Risalat, then how will we confirm anything from him? The other thing is, you have to explain how a a bhungee (marijuana user), a chor (thief), someone who has bad behaviors (bad kiddar), can become a prophet! (See Rk-15, Tiryaq ul Qulub, pages 279-280).

20:07, Saleem starts, you see I had given you a verse of the Quran, (*10:16 (Surah Younus)(10:17 in the Kadiani Koran). In this verse, the prophethood of Younus (As) was established and proven. This is daleel from Allah. At the end of Surah Maida (*5:44 of ther Quran), Allah says that whomever doesn’t want a decision from this Quran, he is a fasiq! He is a Zalim! He is a Kafir! Allah has given a Fatwa of Kufr on anyone who doesn’t use this Quran for their final decision (on any matter). I have presented 10:16 (Surah Younus)(10:17 in the Kadiani Koran). Hazrat Younus (as) presented his life before his claim as evidence of his truthfulness. Saleem read the verse again! Again, Saleem says that this verse is the criteria! I have with me, from Muhammad Hussain Batalvi, who was a Wahabi, and Imtiaz is also a Wahabi firqa/Ahl-e-Hadeeth firqa. He wrote 156 pages about the sadaqat (truthfulness) of MGA (Seerat [life] aur Qirdar[works})(*in reality, Batalvi defended MGA and against many fatwa’s of Kufr). (*MGA was accused of claiming of prophethood for himself). (*Batalvi said that MGA didn’t create a religion called “Ahmadi” or “Mirzai”, that was ironically disproven by MGA when he named his firqa as Ahmadiyya in the 1901 Census). This will remain until the Day of Judgement, seerat per tasdiq (seal of attestation and of the life) of maseeh e maud (MGA). Which came out of the mouth of a Wahabi, by the grace of God. Who’s name was Muhammad Hussain Batalvi Sahib. He has given the testimony which I will read for you in my turn, which will explain to you, that MGA’s (*pre-prophethood life), just like Younus (as)(*pre-prophethood life), was just like the other nabi’s (*pre-prophethood life). Ok, Imtiaz sahib, it’s your turn.

22:20, Imtiaz starts, in the name of Allah the Gracious the Merciful. Meer sahib, you should be careful with your words, I keep reminding you of this, and you keep forgetting, not what you wrote on that copy (*purchee or pocketbook)….the person who is sitting in front of you, answer his question. Now look at the contradiction in his words. Sometimes he (Saleem Meer) says that he wants the Quran to do the faisala (decide between them), and sometimes he says he wants to do his faisala from Batalvi. Until I ask you for anything from Batalvi, (*then you can present it) until then, don’t present anything. Because of the rules of the questioner, which you had had told me, in that, one rules is, that until the questioner asks for something (*specific reference), you can’t present anything! Got it! So when I ask you for it, then present it, now if you wanna read from the letter (*script), what do you call it? I don’t know what letter you call it! If you wanna read these letters, go ahead! We don’t care (no gurz). Mirza sahib was not the Aqida of Tauhid, nor was he on the Aqida e Risalat. You said you wanted a faisala (*decision) from the Quran. You are now going to show me from the Quran, that if any man, who is not the Aqida of Anbiya (prophets) or the Quran, who doesn’t believe in Tauhid, who belief of on Aqida Risalat is also wrong, can that person be a Muslim? Show it from the Quran! Note the question! The second thing is, you keep talking about Qirdar-Qirdar, your argument is khatam (finished), when I told you that, in MGA’s religion, a bhungee (marijuana user), a chor (thief), someone who has bad behaviors (bad kiddar), can become a prophet! (See Rk-15, Tiryaq ul Qulub, pages 279-280). What kind of things are you talking? You should try to deny this. a bhungee (marijuana user), a chor (thief), someone who has bad behaviors (bad kiddar) can become a prophet! Your argument is khutam then! You’re saying that Mirza sahib was Sahib-e-Qirdar (honest behavior), what should I do? You are supposed to establish, via your words, that MGA was on Tauhid. Even some of the Kufar are Sahib-e-Qirdar (honest behavior). Can Kufar become Prophet’s? Listen, every prophet is a Sahib-e-Qirdar (honest behavior), however, every Sahib-e-Qirdar (honest behavior) is not a Nabi. And Insha Allah, I have also explained this to you today, again, you are not supposed to be reading off of your copy (*pocketbook or script). You are supposed to answer my questions.

24:20, Saleem Meer starts, jee jee, thank you for showing your emotions. I am now going to read the writings (abadat) of someone who is a Wahabi teacher, Muhammad Hussain Batalvi, his claim is that he knows MGA better than anyone. The testimony (bayan) that he gave, it is from that same ayat (verse) of the Quran, which I have already presented (10:16). Saleem presents “Tadhkiratu-Shahadatain”(1903), page 62 (*RK-20) and alleges that MGA also told people in this quotation that they have nothing to say about his previous life (before prophethood). MGA said, Allah has made his hujjat on you people! I have presented 1000 proofs (dalile). Allah has done this to give people the opportunity. MGA is a man of Marifat! He presents so many dalile. Thus, no one can allege anything about my previous life! This is why you have been told to never trust someone who has told a lie before. Who is it amongst you who can allege or point out anything bad from my previous life! This is the fazal of Allah! He has kept me on taqwa (righteousness), and this is a daleel for those who are thinkers. At this point, Muhammad Hussain Batalvi, who held membership with the Wahabi firqa, Imtiaz sahib has the same membership! This is a musalamat (argument) from one of his own elders. This is someone who is accepted as their elder. He (Imtiaz) doesn’t consider him (Batalvi) to be gumra (lost) or Kafir, in fact, he (Imtiaz) believes that that he (Batalvi) is a big alim (teacher). He says (Batalvi) in Ishaat us Sunnah, jild-6, shumara-6 (volume 6, page 6?). The author (mohalaf) of Barahin-i-Ahmadiyya, I know him better than anyone else in this world, you won’t find anyone who knows him better than me. Me (Batalvi) and him (MGA) were in school together as kids. MGA follows the laws of Muhammad (saw).

26:27, Bro Imtiaz starts, I have to explain to those are here to listen. Meer sahib is saying that people who say about Mirza sahib that he had good kirdar (manners and behavior). Meer sahib, you have to first listen to the argument/answer of the motriz. It is MGA’s religion that someone who is choora/chummar (homeless gypsy), and bhungee (marijuana abuser), chor (thief), sazaa afta (*someone who has been to jail?) can become a prophet. But you keep telling me that Mirza sahib was a sahib-i-qirdar, you should only present your “MGA was a sahib-i-qirdar” argument if this was your mayyar (example). Per MGA, being a sahib-i-qirdar”, is not his (MGA’s) mayyar (example). You have to deny (inkar) this now, if this is MGA’s religion or not, that someone who is sazaa afta (*someone who has been to jail?), bhungee (marijuana abuser), chor (thief) or baad kiddar (bad behaviors) can become a prophet. Why are you presenting arguments about kiddar? OK (acha), after that, I told you, if you are goint to read your letters (*pre-written responses) then go ahead! There is no gurz! Who has the Quran with them today? The whole world will see! Naozobillah min zalik, that person who says, that Allah has an infinite amount of arms and legs, like a Tendwa, who says that Allah was inside of him (via mojazan)(*all the refs are herein)? Someone (*MGA) who says that when his God makes a promise, sometimes he fulfills it and sometimes he breaks it (*See footnotes, Haqiqatul Wahi, Online English edition, Pages 123-124. 2018 edition)(RK-22, page 106 in Urdu). Someone (*MGA) who says that he was given the power (sift) of giving life and death, via “Kun Fa Ya Kun” (*See Barahin-i-Ahmadiyya-5, page 153)(RK-22, page 108, Haqiqatul Wahi, Urdu). This type of person is a Muslim? Prove him (MGA) a Muslim! Sahib-i-qirdar can also be a Kafir. However, if you believe in MGA, MGA has to be a Muslim first. Sahib-i-qirdar can also be a Kafir! (number 1). Number 2, in your religion, being Sahib-i-qirdar is not a requirement (of prophethood), a baad-kirdar person can also become a prophet (*per MGA), it’s denial is available. Then why are you presenting these things? And the same way, in terms of “Aqida Risalat”, why are you sitting their silently? These types of Kufree-a Aqaid believing (hamal) person, who says that the top (afzal) mamur-min-Allah, he (Muhammad) failed in his mission before he left, is that who you beleive in?