Intro
On 1-18-25, Bro Imtiaz debated Saleem Meer on the topic of “Truthfulness” Or Falsehood of Mirza Ghulam Qadiani. This is part of a 4 series debate. The first was on 1-4-25, Part-2 was on 1-11-25, and Part-3 was today. The final debate is Amir Haq vs. Saleem Meer on the topic of Yuz Asaf, this was supposed to have been done 4 years ago, however, Saleem Meer ran off and refused.
Saleem Meer spoke very disrespectfully about Muhammad (saw)(see herein on twitter and tiktok)(56:31 on youtube).
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00:00 to 5:07, Saleem Meer gives his opening statement. Saleem says that he has written down his explanation of the truthfulness of MGA and will read off of it. Saleem says that the sons of Adam (as) were given prophethood. Saleem quoted 7:35. Saleem also says that ALL prophets before Muhammad (Saw) have died (Qad khallat)(see 5:75 and 3:144) and 5:116. Saleem mentions how Muhammad (Saw) made a prophecy about Maseeh ibn Maryam who was yet to come (*Sahih Bukhari on 4:159, Book of the Prophets, Book 60, Hadith 118, Vol. 4, Book 55, Hadith 657, Chapter: The advent (descent) of ‘Isa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) alayhis-salam). However, Saleem says that Muslims took the words of this prophecy literally and made the same mistakes as others (Jews) and thus denied the claims of MGA. Muslims believe that a previous nabi (Eisa [as]), who is still alive for 2000 years and will physically return at some time. We both believe in the arrival of another Nabi, and the Quran says that the Nabi who is to come will be from within the ummah. These are the foundations of the story. I am the respondent, I believe that MGA is true in his claims. You (Imtiaz) are the questioner. It says in the Quran, if there is ever a dispute (*between two parties, see 4:59), refer to the Quran. Thus, I will use the Quran to establish the truthfulness of MGA. Per the Quran, and per the prophecy of Muhammad (saw)(*see Sahih Bukhari on 4:159, Book of the Prophets, Book 60, Hadith 118, Vol. 4, Book 55, Hadith 657, Chapter: The advent (descent) of ‘Isa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) alayhis-salam). Thus, per the prophecy of Muhammad (Saw), we believe that MGA is a Nabi in one way and an Ummati in another way. Again, just a reminder, the topic here is the Truthfulness of MGA. Ahmadi’s believe in this, whereas the 72 sects (*of Muslims) believe otherwise. Today I am the respondent and Imtiaz is the questioner.
05:09, Bro Imtiaz starts, it is good that you have announced that today I am the questioner and you are the respondent. Whatever you have written down on your copy (paper), I don’t want to hear any of that script. Whatever questions I ask you today, you have to answer those, not anything else (his pocketbook, script/perchee). I don’t want to talk about anything irrelevant, if you do on your TikTok broads, that’s your own business. I am here to talk about Mirza Ghulam Qadiani, who is the founder (banee) of your jamaat, in any of reference (and you have referenced his claim of being Maseel-e-Maseeh). All of these things fall under the category if MGA was a Muslim! Moreover, the beliefs of MGA have to match those of Kitab and Sunnah of the Muslims. Make sure you make a note of my questions about objections. The questions and objections are as follows: if you read the writings of MGA, MGA is not a Muslim! In terms of Tauhid, whatever I say, I will give full references. The first thing is the belief in Tawhid (the oneness of Allah), which is a fundamental concept in Islam. MGA’s beliefs on Tauhid were totally against the Quran. For example, in 1891, MGA said that his God had an infinite amount of hands and feet, like a Tendwa (*Octopus, see pages 61 and 62). At 7:40, is Imtiaz saying that MGA alleged that Allah was inside of him (all the refs are herein). In 1907, MGA also said that when his God makes a promise, sometimes he fulfills it and sometimes he breaks it (See footnotes, Haqiqatul Wahi, Online English edition, Pages 123-124. 2018 edition). MGA also alleged that he was given the power of giving life and death, “Kun Fa Ya Kun” (*See Barahin-i-Ahmadiyya-5, page 153)(RK-16, page 56 in Urdu, via Khutbah ilhamia). MGA also alleged that his God does fasting and does iftar (*the breaking of the fast)(*See footnotes, Haqiqatul Wahi, Online English edition, Pages 123-124. 2018 edition). I have given you just a few references, if you need them, I can give them in detail. Thus, I am arguing that in terms of the acceptance of Tauhid, MGA was not a Muslim. Now, you need to answer, to establish the truthfulness of MGA, from any reference, before we accept the truthfulness of MGA, is proving MGA a Muslim a rule or not? You have to answer this, since I am the questioner. Question number-2, if you can’t prove that MGA is a Muslim, after I have explained MGA’s explanations (*of Tauhid). This is the fundamentals of our dialogue going forward. After that, in Islam there is the belief in Risalat (*messengership and Nubuwwat). MGA argued that Muhammad (Saw) failed in his mission (fareeza) (naozobillah) or wasn’t able to complete his mission (fareeza) and thus his 2nd coming was required to complete his mission via Baruz. This is Kufree-a belief! After that, MGA claimed to be the second coming of Muhammad (Saw)(naozobillah). To cover all of this up, MGA claimed to be a Baruz (re-incarnation). Whatever you want (*references) I will give it! For the time being, I have given you 2 examples. 1–MGA didn’t believe in Tauhid per Islam, nor did he believe in Risalat (*messengership and Nubuwwat).
10:07, Saleem starts, he asks Imtiaz to keep time for him and vice versa. He starts again at 10:43. Saleem says that he is the respondent and the questioner. I have a dawah and daleel. Whatever dawah a person presents, there is a daleel. This is my responsibility. Like I told you earlier, the Quran tells us to judge via the Quran (*see 4:59). Whatever I have written on my copy it is per these rules. Whatever daleel I give it will be via the Quran in terms of the truthfulness of MGA. Whatever objections you are presenting was already done by your elders, they had nothing to do with the Quran. You have not presented anything from the Quran. The 10-15 points that you have brought from some book, and now you want an answer, first give me all of these references. I will read those entire references and then give you an answer. But if you give me a reference, and I don’t ask for it, first you have to give the reference, then we will talk about it, but what I don’t want, is that you bring 25 points from your copy, and quickly spit them out in 2 mins, that’s not hard, but there is NO references, you don’t know where it is or not written, the people listening will not be able to understand, are these your own words? or are they actually written? You have been using “Sabooht Hazar hai” book for your references via the index and you said that in your 5 minutes. I will give the truthfulness of MGA from the Quran. You need to give a verse from the Quran which shows the definition of a Muslim.
12:47, Bro Imtiaz responds, like I said earlier, MGA is not a Muslim based on his beliefs on Tauhid, nor is he a Muslim based on Risalat (*messengership and Nubuwwat). You said you want a decision based on the Quran. Then you should establish from the Quran what Tauhid is. MGA said that his God had an infinite amount of hands and feet, like a Tendwa (*Octopus, see pages 61 and 62, RK. V-3, page 90 for the Urdu ref). MGA also said that when his God makes a promise, sometimes he fulfills it and sometimes he breaks it (*See footnotes, Haqiqatul Wahi, Online English edition, Pages 123-124. 2018 edition)(RK-22, page 106 in Urdu).
13:34, Saleem interrupts Imtiaz and asks for references, he alleges that Imtiaz should say them slowly because he is writing them down.
13:49, Bro Imtiaz starts again, in terms of the belief in Tauhid, which was my first contention. Again, MGA has explained that his God is like a tendwa and has an infinite amount of hands and feet (*Octopus, see pages 61 and 62)(RK-3, page 90 in Urdu). MGA also said that when his God makes a promise, sometimes he fulfills it and sometimes he breaks it (*See footnotes, Haqiqatul Wahi, Online English edition, Pages 123-124. 2018 edition)(RK-22, page 106 in Urdu).
MGA also alleged that he was given the power of giving life and death (RK-16, page 56 in Urdu, via Khutbah ilhamia). MGA also alleged that his God does fasting and does iftar (*the breaking of the fast)(*See footnotes, Haqiqatul Wahi, Online English edition, Pages 123-124. 2018 edition)(RK-22, page 107). MGA also alleged that he was given the power of giving life and death, via “Kun Fa Ya Kun” (*See Barahin-i-Ahmadiyya-5, page 153)(RK-22, page 108, Haqiqatul Wahi, Urdu).
14:54, Saleem interrupts and confirms the ref of (RK-22, page 108, Haqiqatul Wahi, Urdu). Can you repeat this, just for me to be sure. I also need the “Kun Fa Ya Kun” reference. Bro Imtiaz said it can also be found at RK-21, page 124, Urdu (*See Barahin-i-Ahmadiyya-5, page 153). Saleem confirms this reference.
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https://ahmadiyyafactcheckblog.com/2025/01/26/truthfulness-or-falsehood-of-mirza-ghulam-qadiani-debate-3-bro-imtiaz-questioner-vs-saleem-meer-respondent-1-18-25-part-2-1526-to-2832/
15:26, Saleem starts, he says that MGA is true in his claims. For this, I will present a verse of the Quran as proof. In this verse, Allah tells us about the previous prophets and how they were established as truthful. In the Quran, Allah has presented the life of any prophet before his claims as evidence, this is the daleel of Allah. Allah said that the life before claims (*of prophethood) will be evidence. In terms of the previous life, what testimonies have people given! Saleem presents 10:16 (Surah Younus)(10:17 in the Kadiani Koran). Saleem read the verse in Arabic. Saleem argues that this verse is a touchstone to find the truthfulness of any claimant, this is the daleel of sadaqat (*explanation of truthfulness). Whatever I say, is from the Quran (from inside the Quran), I won’t present made, up ideas/formula’s from people (that they have made themselves), this is what the deniers of previous prophets did. I believe in the Quran and will present that and I want that to be the thing that brings a conclusion to our dispute.
17:31, Bro Imtiaz starts, He tells Saleem that he shouldn’t present things as daleel until he is asked for them. I am the questioner and you have to answer! Don’t quote from your pocketbook or your copy (notes written on paper)! You have been doing that on your live streams, we have no concern with that! You said you want a decision from the Quran. You have to tell me, in terms of the Quranic belief in Tauhid. Is it possible to believe in Allah as having an infinite number of hands and feet like a Tendwa (*Octopus, see pages 61 and 62)? Can someone say that per the Quran, is it OK to say that Allah is inside of me? Can a Muslim say that Allah was inside of him (via mojazan)(*all the refs are herein)? Per Tauhid in the Quran, will someone say (*See footnotes, Haqiqatul Wahi, Online English edition, Pages 123-124. 2018 edition)(RK-22, page 106 in Urdu). Per Tauhid in the Quran, has anybody been given the ability to bring the dead back to life (*See Barahin-i-Ahmadiyya-5, page 153)(RK-16, page 56 in Urdu, via Khutbah ilhamia)? Did Allah give anyone the power of “Kun Fa Ya Kun”? (*See Barahin-i-Ahmadiyya-5, page 153). What kind of things are you saying? You shouldn’t be reading from the copy (pocketbook). If you want to Raffa my question/contention, that’s ok, do bismillah and do it. However, if you want to read off of your copy, there is nothing there. The other thing is, read your own books! Per the intellect of Mirza sahib, a bhungee (marijuana user), a chor (thief), someone who has bad behaviors (bad kiddar), can become a prophet! (See Rk-15, Tiryaq ul Qulub, pages 279-280). You should remember this! The part about kiddar (behaviors) will be presented after you answer about per the religion of MGA a chor (thief), a bhungee (marijuana user), someone who has bad behaviors (bad kiddar), can he become a prophet or not? (See Rk-15, Tiryaq ul Qulub, pages 279-280). Write down this question! After that, in terms of “Aqida Risalat” (belief on messengership). Everybody note this! What was MGAQ aqida on risalat? Naozobillah, MGA argued that Muhammad (Saw) failed in his mission (fareeza) (naozobillah) or wasn’t able to complete his mission (fareeza) and thus his 2nd coming was required to complete his mission via Baruz (RK-17, page 262). You should read it! MGA was calling himself Muhammad (saw) Rasul-Ullah, this is Kufr. MGA doesn’t believe in Islamic Tauhid, nor does he believe in Risalat, then how will we confirm anything from him? The other thing is, you have to explain how a a bhungee (marijuana user), a chor (thief), someone who has bad behaviors (bad kiddar), can become a prophet! (See Rk-15, Tiryaq ul Qulub, pages 279-280).
20:07, Saleem starts, you see I had given you a verse of the Quran, (*10:16 (Surah Younus)(10:17 in the Kadiani Koran). In this verse, the prophethood of Younus (As) was established and proven. This is daleel from Allah. At the end of Surah Maida (*5:44 of ther Quran), Allah says that whomever doesn’t want a decision from this Quran, he is a fasiq! He is a Zalim! He is a Kafir! Allah has given a Fatwa of Kufr on anyone who doesn’t use this Quran for their final decision (on any matter). I have presented 10:16 (Surah Younus)(10:17 in the Kadiani Koran). Hazrat Younus (as) presented his life before his claim as evidence of his truthfulness. Saleem read the verse again! Again, Saleem says that this verse is the criteria! I have with me, from Muhammad Hussain Batalvi, who was a Wahabi, and Imtiaz is also a Wahabi firqa/Ahl-e-Hadeeth firqa. He wrote 156 pages about the sadaqat (truthfulness) of MGA (Seerat [life] aur Qirdar[works})(*in reality, Batalvi defended MGA and against many fatwa’s of Kufr). (*MGA was accused of claiming of prophethood for himself). (*Batalvi said that MGA didn’t create a religion called “Ahmadi” or “Mirzai”, that was ironically disproven by MGA when he named his firqa as Ahmadiyya in the 1901 Census). This will remain until the Day of Judgement, seerat per tasdiq (seal of attestation and of the life) of maseeh e maud (MGA). Which came out of the mouth of a Wahabi, by the grace of God. Who’s name was Muhammad Hussain Batalvi Sahib. He has given the testimony which I will read for you in my turn, which will explain to you, that MGA’s (*pre-prophethood life), just like Younus (as)(*pre-prophethood life), was just like the other nabi’s (*pre-prophethood life). Ok, Imtiaz sahib, it’s your turn.
22:20, Imtiaz starts, in the name of Allah the Gracious the Merciful. Meer sahib, you should be careful with your words, I keep reminding you of this, and you keep forgetting, not what you wrote on that copy (*purchee or pocketbook)….the person who is sitting in front of you, answer his question. Now look at the contradiction in his words. Sometimes he (Saleem Meer) says that he wants the Quran to do the faisala (decide between them), and sometimes he says he wants to do his faisala from Batalvi. Until I ask you for anything from Batalvi, (*then you can present it) until then, don’t present anything. Because of the rules of the questioner, which you had had told me, in that, one rules is, that until the questioner asks for something (*specific reference), you can’t present anything! Got it! So when I ask you for it, then present it, now if you wanna read from the letter (*script), what do you call it? I don’t know what letter you call it! If you wanna read these letters, go ahead! We don’t care (no gurz). Mirza sahib was not the Aqida of Tauhid, nor was he on the Aqida e Risalat. You said you wanted a faisala (*decision) from the Quran. You are now going to show me from the Quran, that if any man, who is not the Aqida of Anbiya (prophets) or the Quran, who doesn’t believe in Tauhid, who belief of on Aqida Risalat is also wrong, can that person be a Muslim? Show it from the Quran! Note the question! The second thing is, you keep talking about Qirdar-Qirdar, your argument is khatam (finished), when I told you that, in MGA’s religion, a bhungee (marijuana user), a chor (thief), someone who has bad behaviors (bad kiddar), can become a prophet! (See Rk-15, Tiryaq ul Qulub, pages 279-280). What kind of things are you talking? You should try to deny this. a bhungee (marijuana user), a chor (thief), someone who has bad behaviors (bad kiddar) can become a prophet! Your argument is khutam then! You’re saying that Mirza sahib was Sahib-e-Qirdar (honest behavior), what should I do? You are supposed to establish, via your words, that MGA was on Tauhid. Even some of the Kufar are Sahib-e-Qirdar (honest behavior). Can Kufar become Prophet’s? Listen, every prophet is a Sahib-e-Qirdar (honest behavior), however, every Sahib-e-Qirdar (honest behavior) is not a Nabi. And Insha Allah, I have also explained this to you today, again, you are not supposed to be reading off of your copy (*pocketbook or script). You are supposed to answer my questions.
24:20, Saleem Meer starts, jee jee, thank you for showing your emotions. I am now going to read the writings (abadat) of someone who is a Wahabi teacher, Muhammad Hussain Batalvi, his claim is that he knows MGA better than anyone. The testimony (bayan) that he gave, it is from that same ayat (verse) of the Quran, which I have already presented (10:16). Saleem presents “Tadhkiratu-Shahadatain”(1903), page 62 (*RK-20) and alleges that MGA also told people in this quotation that they have nothing to say about his previous life (before prophethood). MGA said, Allah has made his hujjat on you people! I have presented 1000 proofs (dalile). Allah has done this to give people the opportunity. MGA is a man of Marifat! He presents so many dalile. Thus, no one can allege anything about my previous life! This is why you have been told to never trust someone who has told a lie before. Who is it amongst you who can allege or point out anything bad from my previous life! This is the fazal of Allah! He has kept me on taqwa (righteousness), and this is a daleel for those who are thinkers. At this point, Muhammad Hussain Batalvi, who held membership with the Wahabi firqa, Imtiaz sahib has the same membership! This is a musalamat (argument) from one of his own elders. This is someone who is accepted as their elder. He (Imtiaz) doesn’t consider him (Batalvi) to be gumra (lost) or Kafir, in fact, he (Imtiaz) believes that that he (Batalvi) is a big alim (teacher). He says (Batalvi) in Ishaat us Sunnah, jild-6, shumara-6 (volume 6, page 6?). The author (mohalaf) of Barahin-i-Ahmadiyya, I know him better than anyone else in this world, you won’t find anyone who knows him better than me. Me (Batalvi) and him (MGA) were in school together as kids. MGA follows the laws of Muhammad (saw).
26:27, Bro Imtiaz starts, I have to explain to those are here to listen. Meer sahib is saying that people who say about Mirza sahib that he had good kirdar (manners and behavior). Meer sahib, you have to first listen to the argument/answer of the motriz. It is MGA’s religion that someone who is choora/chummar (homeless gypsy), and bhungee (marijuana abuser), chor (thief), sazaa afta (*someone who has been to jail?) can become a prophet. But you keep telling me that Mirza sahib was a sahib-i-qirdar, you should only present your “MGA was a sahib-i-qirdar” argument if this was your mayyar (example). Per MGA, being a sahib-i-qirdar”, is not his (MGA’s) mayyar (example). You have to deny (inkar) this now, if this is MGA’s religion or not, that someone who is sazaa afta (*someone who has been to jail?), bhungee (marijuana abuser), chor (thief) or baad kiddar (bad behaviors) can become a prophet. Why are you presenting arguments about kiddar? OK (acha), after that, I told you, if you are goint to read your letters (*pre-written responses) then go ahead! There is no gurz! Who has the Quran with them today? The whole world will see! Naozobillah min zalik, that person who says, that Allah has an infinite amount of arms and legs, like a Tendwa, who says that Allah was inside of him (via mojazan)(*all the refs are herein)? Someone (*MGA) who says that when his God makes a promise, sometimes he fulfills it and sometimes he breaks it (*See footnotes, Haqiqatul Wahi, Online English edition, Pages 123-124. 2018 edition)(RK-22, page 106 in Urdu). Someone (*MGA) who says that he was given the power (sift) of giving life and death, via “Kun Fa Ya Kun” (*See Barahin-i-Ahmadiyya-5, page 153)(RK-22, page 108, Haqiqatul Wahi, Urdu). This type of person is a Muslim? Prove him (MGA) a Muslim! Sahib-i-qirdar can also be a Kafir. However, if you believe in MGA, MGA has to be a Muslim first. Sahib-i-qirdar can also be a Kafir! (number 1). Number 2, in your religion, being Sahib-i-qirdar is not a requirement (of prophethood), a baad-kirdar person can also become a prophet (*per MGA), it’s denial is available. Then why are you presenting these things? And the same way, in terms of “Aqida Risalat”, why are you sitting their silently? These types of Kufree-a Aqaid believing (hamal) person, who says that the top (afzal) mamur-min-Allah, he (Muhammad) failed in his mission before he left, is that who you beleive in?
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https://www.youtube.com/live/1n-DWcbwwNA?si=MH42dJUqBEeqPc9i
28:32, Saleem starts, congratulations for your emotions, your time is up..now start my time. Just as I told you before, and like I told you before (sarcastically) you must give me the havala (quotation), then you can read the ibadat (MGA’s writing?). But you are stuck in your habits. You have read the quote 10 times, but didn’t give me the quotation even once. So give the references for this, the choora, chummar, bhungee, chor can become a nabi, this quote, please (maira-banee) give it to me. Then you said that this isn’t the myar (standard) of Saleem Meer. You don’t know the knowledge of debate! We knew this from your previous utterances! Today, the viewers know about this even more (*it is announced). What do I believe? When I give you daleel (explanation), I don’t care what I believe. I will give you daleel from your own musalamat (*your own writings). Your elder is Muhammad Hussain Batalvi sahib! You are a Wahabi and so is he! Or you can say that he is a Kafir too! The person who was praising MGA to such an extent! He is a Kafir! Make the announcement! Then I won’t present anything from him in front of you! I will present him who you consider a Muslim! So look, he (*Batalvi), is saying in Ishaat us Sunnah, jild-7, shumara-9. The author of Barahin-i-Ahmadiyya, from the spirit of the ….(*etc etc), he is living his life in accordance with the sharia of Muhammad (*saw) and he is truthful and “praise-gar”. He (*Batalvi) says, in terms of Barahin-i-Ahmadiyya, in this era, there has never been a book written like this in the history of Islam. He (*Batalvi) says, the author of Barahin-i-Ahmadiyya is even willing to risk his life (jaani) and all of his money (maalee) to defend Islam (and ilmee, ehsanee, lisaanee, khalee, kaalee nusrat). This example was very few in Islamic history. This is from Ishaat us Sunnah, jild-6, shumara-6, your elder, Muhammad Hussain Batalvi (Wahabi sahib), he is praising MGA (as), proving his truthfulness (sadaqat), and giving proof that MGA is on the sharia of Muhammad (*saw).
30:41, Bro Imtiaz starts, meer sahib? Meer sahib? What happened? what happened with the musalamat (rules)? Why did you mix them up! When you start again, you will give the reference, when we made the rules (for this debate), did I make Muhammad Hussain Batalvi as part of my musalamat (rules)? Show this publicly! If you can’t, you must publicly apologize. Muhammad Hussain Batalvi is not in my musalamat (rules), nor is he in yours. However, MGAQ, who is your hakam and adl, he is at the top of the list of your musalamat (rules). Now look at this! You said that you wanted the reference for wherein (MGA said) that a baad-kirdar (bad mannered) person can become a prophet. The reference is Rk-15, Tiryaq ul Qulub, pages 279-280. There ya go! You have been given the reference (* it was given 2-3 times previously), which explains how a baad-kirdar (bad mannered) person can become a prophet in your religion. Acha jee! Now listen going forward. We have you about 2, now I will tell you the third. MGAQ said, if a man, “Ashara thun” (hint), disrespects any prophet (as) of Allah (does Tauhin, Tauqir), then that person is a Kafir. But, MGA also said that Eisa (As) used to drink alcohol (*nauzobillah), out of some old habit or because of some illness. Now, to accuse a prophet of Allah of drinking alcohol, what did he say? What did he (MGA) say? MGA said even if there is “Ashara thun”(hint), then this is “Brahayrast” (independent)(*MGA claimed that Brahayrast prophethood had ended). Thus, by MGA’s own standards, he is himself a Kafir. Now why did you come here to convince me of something, from someone who called himself a Kafir (*out of consequence). Now don’t start reading the new letter you got (*perchee aka pocketbook), don’t read that! Answer the questions of the Motriz. Do you remember? You had said in the past, you had told me that the “Sihal” (questioner) must answer the Motriz. You said that until daleel is given by the motriz, answers will not be given. So after this, you will not be allowed to read anything by Batalvi. I am telling you this based on the rules by your own doing.
32:47, Saleem Meer starts, acha jee, thank you! I am going to read forward, just like I have proven from this verse of the Quran-e-Kareem. It is written therein that the prophets have always presented their previous life (*of sadaqat) as proof of their prophethood. Just like Rasul-Ullah Kareem (saw) did. This is why he was called Sadiq and Amin. Then there was a time when he was called a liar and etc. The same people who called him Sadiq and Amin before his claims, they called him a Kazzab after his claims. That’s why if someone objects after the claims, it means nothing. You only look at the life before the claim. In this context, Muhammad Hussain Batalvi sahib, who is their Wahabi Alim at that time, who had classes with MGA (*in their youth, 1845-1856-ish), his testimony, which is worth more than the testimony of Imtiaz, who is saying that MGAQ followed the laws of Muhammad and etc., and the author of Barahin-i-Ahmadiyya, is risking his maalee (money), jaanee (his life), ilmee, lisanee and khalee/kalee, and this was never shown to the world before. He was being called “Azeem-au-shaan” (*the brightest light) Muslim, and now he (*Imtiaz) is saying that he (*MGA), is not a Muslim. Now his (*Imtiaz’s) elders, who saw it with their own eyes, until they denied the claims of MGA, they believe that there was never a Muslim born like MGA in 1400 years. As soon as he made these claims, these same people started calling him (*MGA) a Kazzab. Just like what happened with Muhammad (saw), they called him Sadiq and Amin, but after his claims he was called Kazzab and etc. Astagfarullah, astagfarullah. Now he (*Imtiaz) presented a myar (impression) to me, that a baad-kirdar (bad mannered) person can become a prophet. If you are going to listen to me, I am placing before you my dawah, and I am presenting your elder (*Batalvi), who gave proofs of MGA being a Muslim.
34:53, Bro Imtiaz starts, bis millah irrama nirrraheem. It seems like you have mixed up a few things, listen up! You said, “your claim”, brother, you are the one I am explaining to, you will say today publicly, that if a person holds the belief, that a baad kirdar (bad mannered) person can become a prophet, what fatwa will you issue? Until you deny this, that a baad kirdar person cane become a prophet, until then, your arguments hold no weight. But what does he say? He keeps reading the new letters (*perchee aka pocketbook) that keep being sent to him. People are listening, read it as much as you want! Muhammad Hussain Batalvi, we had decided on the rules of this debate, they were all confirmed. You even confessed to have had written them all down. I asked you to show me where Muhammad Hussain Batalvi was included in my musalamat. I told you, either present where this is in the muslamat, because we had already decided, or you need to apologize in public. hai hai! Meer sahib, what has came out of your mouth? The life before the dawah? In your turn, come here and explain, in what year did MGA give his “dawah”. And what was that “dawah”? The splashes (cheentay) of claim that hit Mirza sahib in the “Daman”, that were before his “Dawah”. Make a note of this question. Do bismillah, this is enough.
36:20, Saleem starts, you can see now, that I brought a verse of the Quran-e-Kareem, and presented a rule, from the words of Allah-tallah! Wherein Allah says that your differences (ikhtalaf) should be solved by the Quran. In the verse of the Quran, it is written that if you want to see if someone is truthful (sadiq) or a liar (kazzb), then you must pay close attention to their life pre-prophethood. Saleem says he presented arguments from Batalvi and alleges that Bro Imtiaz has not responded. Saleem Meer mentions the praise of Batalvi. Imtiaz must declare Batalvi a liar! Saleem Meer says that he is presented the testimony of Batalvi to prove that MGA was a prophet.
38:24, Imtiaz starts, Saleem Meer says he wants a decision from the Quran. Imtiaz points out that Saleem Meer is saying that per the Quran, a claimant of prophethood is proven from his life before prophethood, however, MGA said that even a Kanjar has the potential to be a prophet. In fact, MGA is against you! MGA said that (See RK-3, page 456) a Sadiq or Momin doesn’t cuss. Bro Imtiaz explains how MGA wrote “Curse”, 1000 times.
40:30, Saleem Meer starts, Saleem argues that Imtiaz follows the Quran, thus, Imtiaz must only follow those rules which are in the Quran, which in the case of prophethood is an examination of MGA’s life before 40. Saleem Meer asserts that Muslims are stuck with the testimony of Batalvi only as a proof of MGA’s previous life. Saleem Meer brazenly declared that if this quranic rule is not applied, then there is no way to verify the prophethood of Muhammad (Saw), Yunus (as) or anyone else.
42:30, Bro Imtiaz starts, Bro Imtiaz shows how Saleem Meer is refuting MGA.
44:05, Saleem Meer starts, and repeats himself, i.e., Batalvi testified to the truth of MGA. Saleem Meer argued that after a person claims prophethood, the life they live after prophethood is not a testament of anything, it is only the life before prophethood.
46:12, Bro Imtiaz starts, Bro Imtiaz asks Saleem Meer to publish the date of MGA’s first claim? When did MGA claim prophethood? Bro Imtiaz reminds Saleem Meer that MGA said once that NO ONE knew him before his claims, NO ONE!
48:19, Saleem Meer starts, he repeats himself, he repeats the argument that a claimant of prophethood must only be good in his life pre-prophethood. Meer mentions Yunus (As).
50:24, Bro Imtiaz starts, Bro Imtiaz points out that Saleem Meer keeps arguing that for someone to be a prophet they must “Sahib-e-Kirdar” (a person of respectful conduct), however, MGA said the opposite, i.e., that a thief can also be a prophet. Further, MGA specifically said that NO ONE knew him before he claimed prophethood.
52:26, Saleem Meer starts, Saleem alleges that Muhammad (Saw) sent lanaat on people and thus, he can’t be a Sadiq (naozobillah). Saleem Meer alleges that Allah forced Muhammad (saw) and others to send Lanaat on people (Naozobillah). Saleem Meer says that “dua qunoot” has lanaat in it. Saleem Meer alleges that the father of Maulvi Zafar Ali Khan also attested to the goodness of MGA while MGA was in Sialkot, this was allegedly said on June-8-1908 (Zamindar), when MGA died via the zamindar newspaper.
54:32, Bro Imtiaz starts, MGA said that saying Lanaat is not the work of a Sadiq. Saleem Meer needs to explain when MGA claimed prophethood, since we all know, MGA wasn’t a claimant until 1901, per his son’s testimony. Stop pulling it back to 1880. Bro Imtiaz argues that since MGA’s prophethood starts in 1901, MGA cussing in 1891 to 1899 disqualifies him from prophethood.
56:31, Saleem Meer starts, Meer says that by 1880, MGA had made his claim of receiving Wahi/ilham. Batalvi defended all of these wahi/ilham. Saleem Meer makes disrespectful comparisons between Muhammad (Saw) and MGA. Meer alleges that Muhammad (Saw) began receiving revelations before his actual prophethood.
58:36, Bro Imtiaz starts, he reminds Saleem Meer that he is the questioner, Saleem Meer must answer. Imtiaz says that when Meer quoted the prophethood of Yunus (as), he was giving an example. MGA didn’t become a prophet until 1900, and allegations of bad behavior starts many years before that.
1:00:20, Saleem Meer starts, Meer argues that after claiming prophethood, Muhammad (Saw) was accused of bad behavior. Meer repeats many arguments. Meer tells Imtiaz to find references before 1880 if he wants to prove that MGA had bad character.
1:02:25, Bro Imtiaz asks Meer if he wants to extend the time of this debate.
1:03:52, Bro Imtiaz starts, he repeats many arguments.
1:05:40, Saleem Meer starts, he quotes 69:44 of the Quran and argues that false prophets are killed. Meer alleges that in 1880 MGA his claims of talking to God.
1:07:44, Bro Imtiaz starts, Imtiaz asks to see where it says in the Quran that 23 years is a requirement for prophethood.
1:09:16, Saleem Meer starts, again, he alleges that MGA made his claims in 1880. Meer says that the 23 year rule is about Muhammad (Saw), if he was correct via the 69:44, then so is MGA. If Muhammad (Saw) is a liar, then so is MGA.
1:11:23, Bro Imtiaz starts, Imtiaz asks to see the “23″ word in 69:44. Imtiaz asks as to what happens if someone doesn’t complete the 23 years? Are they fake?
1:12:40, Saleem Meer starts, he repeats the same arguments about 23 years.
1:14:45, Bro Imtiaz starts, he reminds Meer that he is the questioner and Meer is the respondent. Imtiaz points out that per the 23-year rule, people would be sitting around for 23 years and waiting.
1:17:30, Meer starts, Meer argues that false prophets are always failures. Meer quotes Ibn Qayyim in terms of the 23-year rule and 69:44.
1:19:35, Imtiaz starts, he repeats the same arguments.
1:21:23, Meer starts, he quotes some books and doesn’t understand why Imtiaz doesn’t care. He repeats the same arguments.
1:23:27, Imtiaz starts, Imtiaz points out how Saleem Meer recently called the author of Lisan al Arab a liar, simply because of his entry on “Khatam”. Imtiaz says that Ibn Qayyim never supported the 23-year rule via 69:44. Imtiaz says that Meer keeps hiding behind scholars.
1:25:40, Meer starts, Meer says that Imtiaz won’t use his aql. Meer quotes Tabari and alleges that Tabari even said that a liar who claims prophethood is properly dealt with. Meer quotes Sanaullah too.
1:28:00, Imtiaz starts, he repeats many arguments. Imtiaz repeats, if a person doesn’t live 23 years, are they not a prophet?
1:29:31, Meer starts, he repeats many arguments. He quotes Maulvi Sanaullah again.
1:31:36, Imtiaz starts, Imtiaz quoted page 200 of Hamamatul Bushra and shows how MGA wrote that Yahya (as) was killed, before he finished 23 years. Imtiaz also highlighted that MGA was a Kafir and even called himself God. MGA said he has the sift (power) of fana.
1:33:40, Meer starts, Meer quotes Zakir Naik and Ahmad Deedat. Meer alleges that MGA never claimed divinity. Meer alleges that MGA lived for 28 years while claiming to speak to Allah.
1:36:14, Imtiaz starts, Imtiaz mentions Janba and shows that he has lived over 23 years after making his claim. Bahaullah too! Imtiaz repeats a few arguments. MGA is not a Muslim, he broke all of his own rules and even claimed divinity. MGA even said that Muhammad (Saw) didn’t complete this task before he died (naozobillah).
1:38:23, Meer starts, he repeats many arguments. Meer alleges that Janba hasn’t published his claims far and wide since 1990. Meer says that Janba must be right if he has lived 23+ years after his claim, however, Meer alleges that Janba has no arguments. This is why Meer alleges to have rejected Janba. In terms of Bahaullah, Meer says the same, he doesn’t know when and where Bahaullah has published his first revelations and then kept doing it for 23 years. Meer alleges that MGA did say that Yahya (as) was shaheed and was killed.
1:40:26, Imtiaz starts, Imtiaz quoted “Tafseer Maseeh e Maud”, V-3, page 397, under the commentary of Chapter 4 (nisa). MGA said that a prophet has to die before he his elevated in rank? MGA called them “mulhoom”. Did Saleem Meer know this? MGA argued that prophets who are killed don’t have their rank raised.
1:42:25, Meer starts, Meer alleges that MGA never said that Yahya (as) was killed before 23 years has elapsed and thus, this line of argumentation is wrong. Meer argues that MGA got 28 years! Meer alleges that this person has to keep publishing his revelations for 23 years to qualify under the 23-year rule of 69:44.
1:44:30, Imtiaz starts, Imtiaz accuses Meer of not answering questions. Did Meer know that MGA said that someone must die before their rank is raised (not be killed). Imtiaz says that NO muffassir ever said that a person must live 23 years to prove prophethood.
1:46:08, Meer starts, he reads out poetry. He begins to rant. He tells Imtiaz to use his aql.
1:48:14, Imtiaz starts, MGA argued that prophets who are killed don’t have their rank raised. This was about Yahya (as) and Zachariah (as). Saleem Meer never knew this before. And if he did, he is hiding it. Meer also refused to answer about Bahaullah.
1:49:38, Meer starts, alleges that he presented 2 verses of the Quran and Imtiaz didn’t answer them. Meer keeps asserting that a prophet is only judged based on his previous life (pre-prophethood). Meer starts ranting about Muslims hiding their books and newspapers. Meer alleges to have responded to all allegations.
1:51:50, Imtiaz starts, Imtiaz repeats how MGA said, prophets who are killed don’t have their rank raised. This was about Yahya (as) and Zachariah (as).
1:53:36, Meer starts, Meer alleges that Imtiaz hasn’t answered anything. Meer alleges that Sanaullah wrote that if a nabi is killed, they are false. He repeats many arguments. Meer alleges that MGA stayed alive 28 years after his claims. MGA was not killed by anyone and created Khilafat.
1:55:44, Imtiaz starts, Imtiaz repeated his previous arguments. Imtiaz demands an answer as to why Meer doesn’t accept Bahaullah or Janba, what is the reason?
1:57:36, Meer starts, he repeats his arguments. He says that he has presented 2 verses.
2:00:00, Imtiaz starts, Imtiaz explains how Meer broke the rules of the debate many times. Imtiaz then repeats his arguments.
2:03:22, Meer begins to give his concluding remarks. He mentions the same arguments. Again, Meer asserted that MGA’s claims started in 1880.
2:06:38, the debate ends.
2:20:00, Imtiaz asked Meer why he is afraid to debate Amir Haq.
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This is Tafsir Maseeh e Maoud, which Bro Imtiaz quoted.
“Tafseer Maseeh e Maud”, V-3, page 397
BA-5, online English edition, page 70
See also, Al-Hakam of 17 Feb 1901, pages 7-8
“”For, according to the Jewish belief, a person who is killed on the cross becomes accursed and is not spiritually exalted towards God; rather, he goes down towards Satan. Now, God Almighty had to settle in the Holy Quran whether Hadrat ‘Isa was spiritually exalted towards God or not. Hence, God first removed this misconception of the Jews that Hadrat ‘Isa was killed on the cross, declaring that it was merely a conjecture which God had cast into their minds. ‘Isa was not killed through crucifixion so he cannot be considered accursed; rather, he was spiritually exalted as other believers are””” (BA-5, online English edition, page 70).
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Links and Related Essay’s
The legend of Amir Haq vs. Ahmadiyya – ahmadiyyafactcheckblog
MGA invented the 23-year theory for Prophets, and his opinion on 69:44 – ahmadiyyafactcheckblog
MGA invented the 23-year theory for Prophets, and his opinion on 69:44
What is “Hamamatul Bushra” (1893-1894) by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad? – ahmadiyyafactcheckblog
What is “Hamamatul Bushra” (1893-1894) by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad?
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